Harry, Snape and James (was:Re: Sadistic!Snape?...)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 140547

> >>Alla:
> OK, I am incredibly confused now. 

Betsy Hp:
Oops!  That's not the reaction I was going for. <g>

> >>Alla:
> Could we get something out of the way first? :-)
> You are not saying anymore that by bringing James Snape was trying 
> to stop Harry from emulating his father, correct?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Right.  You snipped that part of my post, but in the opening 
paragraph I stated that you were correct, it makes no sense for 
Snape to take that route (attacking James) if his end goal is to 
wean Harry away from James.
 
> >>Alla: 
> So, if we ARE got it out of the way, could you clarify your       
> argument for me, please?
> You are saying that after trip in Hogsmead:
> 1. Snape wants Harry to think about James by insulting him ( OK, I 
> understand it so far, but don't see how that would keep Harry     
> safe).
> 2. Snape is hoping by legilimising Harry to find a prove of       
> Lupin's guilt (?) while Harry is thinking about James. 
> Is that what you are saying? Why would Harry think of Lupin's     
> guilt while he is feeling insulted for his dad?

Betsy Hp:
Not exactly.  Let my try and clarify:  

First, we know for a fact that Snape suspects Lupin of helping 
Sirius.  That we can agree on, right?  Second, we know Lupin *is* 
keeping something from Dumbledore (Sirius is an animagus) and feels 
bad about doing so.  I think this is also an agreed upon fact, yes?  
And third, I *think* we can agree that sneaking into Hogsmeade was 
an incredibly dangerous thing for Harry to do from the view point of 
anyone within that time period of the story. (Sirius, and Pettigrew 
I guess, were the only two who knew that Harry was actually quite 
safe.)

Okay, so with all those facts in front of us, I added another one.  
This is the first time in three years that Snape says anything to 
Harry about James.  Which leads me to a question: If his motivation 
was merely to cause Harry pain by attacking his father, why would 
Snape wait until right then to do so?  What was Snape's motivation 
in bringing up and insulting James at that specific time?

This is where I start to make some educated (or I think so anyway 
<g>) guesses.  First, Snape obviously knows there's something 
special about the one-eyed witch Harry uses to get to Hogsmeade.  My 
speculation is that Snape connects it with the Marauders. (The map 
suggests that they did use that particular pathway themselves, back 
in the day.)  And from the Marauders, Snape seizes onto Lupin.

>From Snape's POV, Lupin would certainly try and lure Harry out of 
the castle into Sirius's easy reach.  And what better way to do so 
than to fill Harry's head with stories of his father's glory days?  
Harry (no stranger to risk taking) would love to emulate his father 
and sneak into Hogsmeade. (Again, this is Snape's POV I'm talking 
about.) 

So that's what I think Snape suspects occured. (How else would Harry 
learn the secret to the one-eyed witch?)  He's questioning Harry, 
Harry is keeping his mouth shut.  But if Snape nudges him, gets his 
dander up, maybe a memory will shake loose enough for Snape to pick 
up.  (And I do think Snape hopes for something to shake loose rather 
than he go diving into Harry's head.  Something Snape could do, 
certainly, but something I'm betting is frowned upon.)
 
> >>Alla: 
> I want to say that you are giving Snape way too much credit here, 
> but I am not even clear what this credit is for. And I am not 
> kidding.

Betsy Hp:
I don't think I'm giving Snape any sort of credit.  Actually, I'm 
saying that he's a suspicious man who's always ready to suspect the 
worst, especially when it comes to Harry.  Something I think you 
could agree with?

> >>Alla:
> Is the gist of your argument that by insulting James Snape was 
> hoping to catch Lupin and thus protect Harry?
> If I am right, wouldn't it be much MORE logical for Snape to      
> insult Lupin in front of Harry and hoping that Harry would think   
> about the instructions which Lupin supposedly gave to him? I don't 
> get it at all.

Betsy Hp:
Snape would give Lupin more credit than that, I think.  (After all, 
from Snape's POV, Lupin has managed to fool Dumbledore.)  It would 
be too obvious for Lupin to say, "*I* did such and such,"  but to 
say "I remember when James snuck through the one-eyed witch..., etc, 
etc." would be much more subtle and much more likely to catch 
Harry's attention.

No, I think Snape suspected Harry went about his Hogsmeade adventure 
with his thoughts filled with his father.  So, it would have 
accomplished him nothing to insult Lupin.

> >>Alla:
> OK, let's forget PoA for a minute. What about HBP? What "good' 
> reason Snape has for insulting James here in front of Harry?

Betsy Hp:
No good reason that I can see. Snape *does* hate James, so I don't 
think he's always got some altruistic reason for speaking ill of 
him.  Of course, I don't think it's always about Harry either.

> >>Alla: 
> I think it was Nora who said that it seems that Snape spent more 
> time in HBP obsessing about James ( I am talking in relative terms 
> of Snape screentime of course) than Harry was.

Betsy Hp:
Hmmm.  I skimmed through HBP looking for Snape talking about James 
and he does it only twice, that I found.  Once in Harry's detention 
and again in his last scene.  Considering all the class time Harry 
spent with Snape that is a tiny amount, IMO. (It was off page, yes, 
but I think if Snape spent classtime casually insulting James, Harry 
would think about when we *do* see him.  Instead Harry's mostly 
thinking about Draco.)

> >>Alla:
> So far I remain convinced that the main reason Snape keeps        
> bringing up James is to cause Harry pain and that again makes me   
> doubt Snape remorse, but we shall see of course.

Betsy Hp:
Snape brings James up once in PoA (and I've given my theory on that 
<g>).  He says nothing about James throughout GoF that I could 
find.  He brings James up twice, that I found, in OotP.  The first 
time the insult was aimed directly at Sirius (Harry ignored it, 
caught up as he was in Sirius's anger). The second time was when he 
caught Harry in his pensieve and I think that was pure anger rather 
than a need to hurt Harry.  And then there were the two times in 
HBP. 

> >>Alla:
> I especially wonder what purpose could that sentence have except   
> to get back at Harry, or to get back at James through his son.
> "And you'd turn  my inventions on me, like your filthy father,    
> would you? I don't think so... no!" - p.604, HBP
> I am guessing you would find some logical reason for this         
> sentence...

Betsy Hp:
No, I think this was pure emotion, IMO.  No logic or clear intent, I 
think.  Snape is in a huge amount of pain at this point (if we go by 
his facial expression) so I'm doubting he was too caught up in 
thinking, "Now, how will this affect Harry?" in either a good or a 
wicked way.

> >>Alla: 
> I cannot find any, except intent to cause more pain to the boy    
> whose mentor he killed in front of his eyes ( for whatever reason, 
> if I may add).

Betsy Hp:
Hmmm, I really doubt Snape was *that* focused on Harry, for good or 
ill.  Especially at that point in time.  Mainly he was focused on 
getting away.  Sure, he keeps Harry from using Unforgivables, and 
gives him a quick lesson in dueling, but I really didn't see any 
gloating going on.  I think Snape was just *reacting* to Harry, 
rather than trying to get Harry to react to him.

> >>Alla:
> If Snape did not want to hurt Harry more, I would think he would   
> dissappear without saying anything. After all, it does not 
> seem that he had much problem deflecting Harry's curses.

Betsy Hp:
No problem, *once he turned to face Harry*.  The only reason Harry 
didn't stun Snape while his back was turned was because his aim was 
off.  Snape is far and above a better dueler than Harry, but Harry 
isn't completely harmless.  Snape would have been a fool to ignore 
that first stunning curse, because the next one could well have hit 
him.  (And then were would Draco be? <g>)

> >>Alla:
> Maybe he wanted to continue  the fun? Not killing Harry of course, 
> but hurting him emotionally and physically. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
You know what would have been a perfect way to hurt Harry?  Kill 
Hagrid.  Or kill Buckbeak for that matter.  Snape could have done 
it.  And he had the time.  Why didn't he?

Betsy Hp