Is Harry an idiot because he thinks Snape is guilty?/Some UV again (LONG)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 140600

> Pippin:
> Um, that's what I said. He's not acting rationally. I didn't say he
> should be expected to. If you would like me to say, "His
> judgement is impaired" rather than, "I'm pretty sure he's
> acting like an idiot" -- okay :-)
> 
> But given that he's not acting rationally, is it good judgement
> to appoint himself judge, jury and executioner? 

Alla:

I disagree even with such statement, Pippin. Under circumstances I 
believe he IS acting rationally. Again, he may not know the whole 
story, but I believe it is completely rationally for him considering 
the evidence he has to want to avenge Dumbledore's death. JMO, of 
course.



Pippin: 
> If he only wanted to bring Snape to justice, I wouldn't have
> used the word idiot. But he's already tried to crucio him.
> That's not justice. 

Alla:

Sure it is not justice, BUT that was happening what ten , fifteen 
minutes after Dumbledore's death? I think it is a safe assumption to 
make that he is still in shock. And no, I am not excusing  Harry 
trying to use Crucio at all.


Pippin:
His last word was that it will be the better for 
> him and the worse for Snape if Harry catches up with him
> --which I take to mean,  if Harry finds him before the Aurors 
> do.


Alla:

It can  mean any number of things, I think. It can mean that Harry 
will do exactly that - catches Snape and brings him to justice.
>

Pippin: 
> If he knows even less about Avada Kedavra than we do,
> is it not unwise to pre-empt the judgement of those who 
> know more? 
> 
> If he knows more, if he knows for certain than the
> killing curse can throw a living target into the air,
> or that the body can assume a peaceful expression or bleed
> after death, then JKR is cheating. So far she has been
> very careful not to cheat, even to the point of admitting
> unintentional red herrings. 


Alla:
What I don't get is why you think that Harry should even think about  
the effects of Avada?

Who knows, maybe after Fake!Moody lesson they were instructed to 
wrote an essay, which described that Avada could have variety of 
different effects on the body.

Is JKR cheating or is she simply have not shown us ALL effects from 
Avada Kedavra? As Sherry said  Avada in GH blew up the house and you 
are saying one curse cannot impact the body  for it to flew from teh 
Tower.

And peaceful expression? I think it was done for dramatic effect, 
nothing more, JMO, of course.

But most likely I think it is not on Harry's mind and I don't think 
that it makes his judgment irrational because of that.


Pippin: 
> In fact, she's said that there *is* hope that Snape is not guilty, 
> and she refused to say that he was evil. Granted she was laughing,
> but is the laugh on those who presume innocence until guilt is 
> proven, or on those who have made up their minds in advance?

Alla:

You mean like making up the mind that Snape did not really kill 
Dumbledore  even though Dumbledore is dead?

I don't think there is anything wrong  with making up your mind  when 
you see the evidence to your theory. I absolutely believe  that some 
things on the Tower are much MORE likely to be true than others, even 
if I will be proven dead wrong. But I absolutely don't think that 
Harry is acting as an idiot  or his judgment is irrational, since I 
can totally see  the evidence he has as VERY rational, even if it 
will turn out to be wrong later.

Lady Indigo wrote:
<snip>
> Most importantly is everything Dumbledore was completely and 
totally aware 
> of and how he did nothing to act on it. He knew there was an 
Unbreakable Vow 
> involving Snape and Draco.


Alla:

See, I am not so sure that Snape informed Dumbledore about third 
provision of the Vow. For better explanation see Severely Siguine 
essay, but I will just second her sentiments - when did Snape ever 
agrees during the books that he had been wrong? And he had been wrong 
a plenty.

Of course that is if you consider the thrid provision to be a mistake 
or manifestation of DADA curse, etc. Because I most certainly do.

I think that it all comes to that - if Snape is a good guy  and did 
not know the task,then taking a Vow was a colossal mistake, because 
as Dan argued once , to me it means that Snape was basically giving 
Voldemort a blank cheque - to assign him whatever task he sees fit.

If Snape KNEW  the task, as he says, then  well, then ( TO ME) he 
signed a contract for murder.



Lady Indigo:

<snip>
I don't think he's beyond at least guessing the possibility of HOW 
> Snape is bound to protect Draco, no matter how much he trusts Snape.
> 
> People keep thinking that the best thing for Snape to do was give 
up his own 
> life, but why? He's an incredibly valuable spy who needs to renew 
the faith 
> of the Death Eaters. Dumbledore has been ailing, arguably even 
dying (I'm a 
> pretty solid follower of the 'stoppered death' theory by now), and 
whatever 
> power he has, it's known that Harry's the only one who can defeat 
Voldemort 
> in the end. Obviously Dumbledore's not going to sacrifice Draco's 
> well-being. Dumbledore being the one who must die actually seems 
like a 
> natural conclusion to me.


Alla:

Oh, actually that sounds interesting to me. Are you saying that 
Dumbledore guessed third provision of the Vow, but did not inform 
Snape  about it ( that he knows?)

I actually can buy it, as long as it is not Dumbledore ordering Snape 
to kill him. :-)

As to why Snape should give up his own life, well, because  I cannot 
measure human life in usefullness , even if are those  the times of 
war.

But even if we are measure Dumbledore's usefullness - if nothing 
else, he did not finish educating Harry about horcruxes. Dumbledore, 
the greatest wizard of their time, only managed to get two.

Are you arguing that Dumbledore would be that much at ease leaving 
Harry with the task of finding and destroying FOUR?

See, I think that if nothing else Snape should be held responsible 
for taking Vow in the first place, because he took it on out of his 
own volition and to say that now Dumbledore should die to bail Snape 
out of his idiocy ( IMO, only), well, I disagree with it.

Now, idea of self-sacrifice, sure, absolutely, I can see Dumbledore 
sacrificing himself, especially since I think that JKR considers self-
sacrifice to be  a part of heroic nature.

I just don't think that Dumbledore sacrifice should excuse Snape.

Lady Indigo:
<snip>
And Snape hardly seems to be gloating, in fact wearing 
> a look at one point like he's in pain.


Alla:

Believe me or not, I DO hope you are right. I want Snape to be in a 
LOT of pain through book 7, I also hope we will get to see at least 
some of it.

And yeah, I will settle for emotional pain, although it would be nice 
to see anybody beating Snape up. :-)



Lady Indigo:
> As for the Avada Kedavra, it could very possibly have the potential 
to make 
> the struck wizard fly up in the air. We don't know every time it 
was ever 
> used, or the levels of power it might hit with, or if any other 
> circumstances could have come into play. And is it possible the 
blood could 
> have come from falling from that great height? 

Alla:

EXACTLY.

JMO of course,

Alla