That Fateful Night at Godric's Hollow
lolita_ns
lolita_ns at yahoo.com
Wed Sep 21 21:58:58 UTC 2005
No: HPFGUIDX 140611
Darqali:
"Who
> alerted the whole WW of the events at Godric's Hollow?" One thinks
> there must have been someone else there. The specifics of the
event
> were broadcast almost *immediately* .... hence, the celebrations.
Lolita:
I posted a couple of sentences on this a week or so ago. It is, in
fact, quite simple. I believe that Snape notified Dumbledore the
moment his dark mark disappeared (and since both of them were
probably at Hogwarts, at the time, it would have only taken a couple
of minutes, maybe even less for SS to reach DD), and then the word
spread from there (I do not believe, however, that neither Dumbledore
nor Snape were playing broadcasting agency - it was probably Hagrid's
doing. If you tell one, or two people, some extremely important and
interesting news, then they will tell a couple more people each... -
you know how it goes).
In short: Snape notices his dark mark is gone (probably feels it
petering away, or being stripped away - whatever the way the magic
performed on his arm dissolves - in any case, I think he notices it
during the process itself, and it is probably not an enjoyable
experience). Both he and DD realise that sth must have happened to
LV. Somehow, DD is aware of the Potters' location (I will elaborate
on this later on, but let's just say now that I think it was because
the Caster - Lily - had died), and sends Hagrid to pick up Harry,
while he goes God-knows-where, maybe MoM, maybe somewhere else... In
the meanwhile, Hagrid tells McGonagall what has happened, maybe he
mentions it in passing to somebody else, and there you have it - by
word of mouth, the news has spread in no time.
Darqali:
> As for how Dumbledore knew where the Potters were, and/or how he
told
> Hagrid to go there, that is not a problem to me. The fact that the
> Potters were in hiding does not mean *no one* knew where they were,
> any more than the fact that Grimould Place was hidden meant
that "no
> one" knew where it was, nor how to get there. *Several people* {or
> even *many people*} many have known the Potter's location, just as
> *many people* (including under-age school children; including
Snape)
> knew and could go to Grimould Place .... But they could not
*reveal*
> that location to LV or his supporters because of the charm placed
> upon the secret. I assume Dumbledore knew the Potter's location.
> Dumbledore could have gone to the Potters at any time. And Hagrid
may
> also have known; he was, I blieve, in the OOTP.
> In any event, with the Potter's death, the secret was broken and so
> even if *only* Dumbledore and a handful of others {such as Sirius
and
> Lupin} knew, Dumbledore could have sent a Hagrid who *didn't* know
to
> Godric's Hollow. There was no longer a secret to keep.
Lolita:
Yes, but you forget that neither DD nor Lupin knew of the switch
between Pettigrew and Black. They both believed that Sirius had
betrayed the Potters (and this goes without question, because, had
either of them known, they would have never ever let Sirius rot in
Azkaban for 12 years - so I think it is safe to presume that literaly
*no one* knew of the switch). Since neither Lupin nor DD knew that
the true Secret Keeper was Pettigrew, I think it is also safe to
postulate that Pettigrew did not reveal the Potters' whereabouts to
either of them. Ergo: neither DD nor Lupin knew the location.
(Someone has mentioned that Pettigrew may have given the location to
DD by means of a note written in disguised handwriting, but I tend to
disagree.
First, I rather think that DD would have checked the note for any
signs of trechery. Second, what channels of communication could
Pettigrew use? Owls, you'll say. But owls were probably checked
during VW 1 too, and anyway, I don't think that anyone would have
trusted any owl with such an important message. Even Floo connection
could have been intercepted. The only solution, as I see it, is for
Pettigrew to have given DD the secret in person, in private. But even
if Pettigrew had somehow accomplished this, I think that, had DD
known of the location, he would have probably put - unbeknownst to
the Potters; he is, after all, the guy who doesn't think it necessary
to reveal the details of his master plans until the last moment
possible - some sort of magical protection in the surroundings of the
Potters' home, if only sth to alert him to LV's presence, so that he
could barge in and save the day, or at least take Harry away. So, no,
I don't think that DD knew.)
And as far as I remember, Sirius says, in PoA, that he even suspected
Lupin of being the spy, therefore, it seems plausible that James
thought so too, so there was no way that he would have let Peter tell
the secret to *Lupin*. Thus, it is safe to write Lupin off as one of
the people who knew.
As for DD... He didn't know of the switch, so it is reasonable to say
that he was most definitely *not* the one who did the casting of the
Fidelius (Had he been the caster, he would have known that Pettigrew
was the Secret Keeper, and, consequently, would have vouched for
Sirius and kept him out of Azkaban). And, apart from the things that
I have already mentioned with regards to DD knowing or not knowing
the secret, given the fact that the Potters have refused DD's offer
to be their Secret Keeper, it goes to say that they would have
probably not let him in on the secret at all.
And why did they refuse, I wonder? Maybe because they felt ashamed
because they have tricked him during their school days about their
Animagi skills... Maybe there was something else. But, in any case, I
don't think that DD made absolutely certain that the Potters *really*
knew of the danger they put themselves in by refusing to take him as
their Secret Keeper. I really *do* think that a powerful Legilimens
like LV could have easily pried the Secret out of both Sirius and
Pettigrew. However, DD knew that LV would have much difficulty in
capturing *him*, and even if he had somehow managed it, he probably
couldn't have pried the secret out of *Dumbledore* (who is, if not
*superb*, then at least an accomplished Occlumens, which can be
concluded from the fact that Sirius wonders why DD himself didn't
teach Harry Occlumency - and if he was able to teach it, then he
probably knew *something* of that 'obcure branch of magic.'). So, I
really think that the mistake *was* DD's, not James's, Lily's and
Sirius's. They probably didn't know anything about either Legilimency
or Occlumency, and DD probably didn't explain it to them - otherwise,
they would have not refused his offer.
OTOH, I think that you are right in that Sirius probably knew of the
location. If you've (noy *you* yourself, but an indefinite *you*,
like *one* :)) read PoA carefully, you have concluded that Sirius
made an arrangement to visit with Peter that night. On finding him
gone, he suspected that sth was wrong, and went to the Potters,
*without knowing that anything had happened*. So, he knew. Peter
knew. That's it, IMO.
Darqali:
> In any event, with the Potter's death, the secret was broken and so
> even if *only* Dumbledore and a handful of others {such as Sirius
and
> Lupin} knew, Dumbledore could have sent a Hagrid who *didn't* know
to
> Godric's Hollow. There was no longer a secret to keep.
Lolita:
I still have problems with that. From Flitwick's statements in the 3
Broomsticks, one can conclude that the Secret is kept within a
*living soul*. That would imply that the secret gets outed with the
death of its Keeper. Personally, I think this would be a rather
stupid thing, since all it would take would be for the one after the
secret to find the Secret Kepper and kill him/her.
So, who is this 'living soul' then? From everything we have been
shown, I can only conclude that this refers to the Caster of the
spell. When the Caster dies, the Secret gets outed (we can conclude
this much with regards to other spells, i.e., the ones that Harry was
under in the scene of DD's death). That would explain how everyone
was able to find the Potters' home (Hagrid, MoM, Muggles...).
I don't agree with the idea that, since the house was destroyed,
there was no secret left, for I believe that the charm was not cast
upon the mere building, but on the *location the Potters were*. It
doesn't matter that the walls had crumpled and the house was
destroyed. Both the Potter's bodies and Harry were still there, among
the ruins. That was still their *location*. And if you tell me that
the secret got outed with the *death* of the Potters, I tell you that
there was still one Potter left alive - Harry. The spell was not cast
only for Lily and James, it was cast for the whole family. I would
find your reasoning plausible had the whole family died. Since one of
them remained alive, the secret should have still protected him.
Plus, if Pettigrew was indeed there, the destroying of the house was
probably his doing, and not a side-effect of the AK. (The AK doesn't
leave a trace - the Riddles' bodies and DD looked as if scared to
death and asleep, respectively. It does tend to destroy inanimate
objects when it hits them, though, but I don't think that there was
much ricocheting in GH - no matter how bright he was, James was still
a 20sth year-old against LV in his prime; it doesn't seem as if LV
had much trouble killing him (they probably threw a couple of curses
each before LV AKed James, although I admit that this is pure
speculation on my part), and the same goes for Lily - she didn't
duel, she just asked LV to kill her instead of Harry - and we saw
that much in GoF: Lily exited LV's wand and was immediately followed
by James, there were no curses in between.) Also, from what we have
seen, Pettigrew seems like somebody who enjoys this kind of hurly-
burly - he blew up the street with all those Muggles in it, and in
the Pensieve scene he was, as Sirius (or was it James?) said, about
to wet himself in glee while he was looking at James's playing with
the Snitch and Snape's hanging upside-down. So, if Pettigrew knew
that the Secret would get outed with the destruction of the house
(and I repeat that I don't agree with it), why would he destroy the
house? So that the Secret gets outed? I don't think so. He was
probably either just doing it for the kicks or in order to destroy
the traces of the intended Horcrux set-up (which is a way long and
complicated issue to be dealt with here, so it would have to wait for
another post). In any case, we will find out soon enough (in a couple
of years :) ) - the moment that Harry steps on the ruins of his early
home.
Mind you, regarding the whole Fidelius issue, I still tend to believe
that the best course of action would have been for one of the Potters
to be their own Secret Keeper - what better way to make sure that the
secret won't get outed than to keep it to yourself? Lily was probably
the one who cast the spell. Why wasn't James made the Secret Keeper?
Somebody said that maybe there are some side effects to being your
own Secret Keeper, and that DD didn't spend much time in 12 GP
because of that. I don't think so. I think he spent so little time
there because he was way too busy to stay there - and frankly, why
would he? There was nothing going on there. He went there
occasionaly, attended the meetings... That's it. Why would they need
him? To help the children cleaning the house? To keep Sirius company?
I don't think so.
Darqali:
> Aside: recently Hagrid's first speech to Harry about his parents
was
> recounted, and again I note Hagrid says James was Head Boy. The
> sequence given elsewhere is that students are selected as Prefects
in
> their 5 th year, and then Head Boy and Girl are chosen from among
the
> Prefects in their final year. Yet we know Lupin was Prefect, not
> James. So how did James become Head Boy, seeing he was not first a
> Prefect?
Lolita:
Well, Hagrid was obviously wrong. Rowling herself said - in an
interview, or a chat, or sth, I don't know where or when exactly, but
I am absolutely certain that I've read it somewhere - that you do not
have to be a Prefect in order to become a Head Boy.
OTOH, seeing James' idiotic behaviour in the Pensieve, I wonder just
how he became Head Boy. It had probably something to do with the
Werewolf incident, after which event James probably thought things
over and improved his behaviour (enough to make Evans go out with
him :)). The Werewolf incident probably happened a few days after the
Pensieve scene (Lupin looked sickly in it, and Snape said that Sirius
was 16 when it happened, also, the Werewolf incident was probably the
climax of the animosity between the Marauders and Snape, and the
scene we have witnessed seemed one step short of such climax). So,
James saved Snape - the ultimate idiot, in his opinion - because it
was the right thing to do. This happened, according to my reasoning,
at the end of their 5th year. Thus, James had at least part of the
summer holiday to think things through and to realise that he and
Sirius have really stepped way over the line. He probably calmed down
a bit during his sixth year, and he probably persuaded Sirius to take
a break too. DD was pleased, and rewarded him with a badge the
following year.
And I guess that Snape was beyond livid because of that. But, c'est
la vie.
Cheers,
Lolita.
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