Snape's patronus in Book 7 (Re: Is Harry an idiot because he thinks .....)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 140690

Lupinlore:
> Well that's an interesting question.  If murder tears the soul and 
> it takes a full soul to make a patronus, this might make sense.
> But that assumes facts not in evidence, and if it is true would 
> lead to all sorts of logical problems and plot holes.  

Jen: I'm not so sure about plot holes. I can't think of anything 
this would contradict from what we have in canon. This idea would 
expand on Lupin's explanation, but not counter it. JKR calls the 
patronus a 'spirit guardian' which can protect an individual as well 
as loved ones, and the patronus is used to guard against the souless 
Dementors. We've never seen the likes of Voldemort, Bella, Peter, 
Lucius, et. al., cast one. All in all, I can't see the plot hole if 
it turns out a patronus requires a whole soul.

If you mean Snape, anything about his past is an assumption so this 
wouldn't contradict canon we have so far. 

Lupinlore:
> Indeed, if
> producing a patronus requires mostly just "positive" emotion and 
> one gets great enjoyment and satisfaction out of killing, then I
> can see killers being capable of producing very powerful
> patronuses.  

Jen: This is exactly why I think there's a deeper explanation for 
casting one.

Lupinlore: 
> Snape was a DE for years and still capable of producing a
> Patronus. If he could still produce one after betraying Harry's
> parents and doing dark and evil things for Voldemort (and I really
> don't see him just sitting in his little hole making pretty
> potions for Daddy Riddle), I don't see why anyone would be 
> surprised that he is still  able to make one after one more 
> betrayal and murder.  

Jen: Snape was a DE for approximately 3 years after leaving Hogwarts 
until turning to Dumbledore's side. That's two years longer than 
Draco, and Draco appeared to be given a 'special' assignment rather 
than a routine one. I've argued in the past Snape murdered as a DE, 
so I'm not completely opposed to what you're saying. But I could 
never prove it from the text and then JKR introduced the idea murder 
causes a rip in the soul. That idea made me back off my original 
assumptions about Snape because I wondered how Dumbledore accepted 
him back if he had done extensive killing, and how Snape was able to 
contain his dark arts habit if he had learned to enjoy murdering.

Without getting too repetitive, I believe Dumbledore's measure of 
true loyalty would not be accepting a sob story. Snape approached 
Dumbledore about 'rejoining' his side (interesting word that one, 
GOF) and Dumbledore gave him a *second chance* based on his story-- 
his story alone was not proof of loyalty however. I see proof much 
more along these lines: Which wand chose him and what's it used for? 
When the wand regurgitates past spells using Prior Incantato, what 
comes out? Can he cast a patronus and if so, what shape? What does 
his boggart look like? Will he allow memories to be withdrawn from 
his head for the Pensieve and if so, what are they?

Any one of these alone is inconclusive, but taken together with 
other methods Dumbledore could employ, a pattern develops. And only 
then would Dumbledore allow an ex-DE into his inner circle.

Lupinlore:
> Yes, but how would they know it's Snape's patronus if it's
> changed?  Is there a way of identifying patronuses even when they
> are changed?  Had Snape seen Tonks's wolf-patronus before and just
> not commented on it, or did he have some way of knowing who had
> sent it even if it had changed?  Once again, that assumes all
> sorts of facts about patronuses that aren't in evidence.

Jen: What assumptions? Dumbledore taught Order members how to use a 
patronus for communication and they are the only ones who do it per 
JKR. We know a patronus can change forms, and JKR said on her 
website Order members know each other's forms and know exactly who 
is sending the message. So if a new patronus form were to show up in 
McGonagall's office, or Lupin's werewolf camp, it wouldn't take long 
to run through the possibilities, make certain no Order members' 
forms had changed, then figure out either Snape or Dumbledore (the 
only missing Order members) sent it. Who would you bet on <g>?

And to answer your first question, Snape's new form would have to 
reflect his alliance with Dumbledore to be of any real use for 
proving himself to the Order. Some favor him casting a phoenix, but 
I'm thinking a lemon drop or cockraoch cluster myself, lol. Does it 
have to be an animal? If so, I guess the phoenix even though that's 
a little pat. 

Mainly I'm considering this theory to explain why in the world JKR 
continues to withold information about Snape's patronus form and his 
boggart. Also, what he sees in the Mirror of Erised. There can only 
be one of two answers I believe: 1) He's evil, has always been evil, 
and to show his patronus/boggart prior to the tower scene would give 
it away; 2) He's good, he's always been good since switching sides, 
and his patronus/boggart/Mirror of Erised symbols will prove his 
loyalty in Book 7. 

Maybe if he's out for himself, or just loyal to no one, these 
symbols could be meaningful as well, but somehow I can't picture the 
drama in that. Just a personal opinion.


Lupinlore: 
> Also, when asked about Snape's patronus before HBP JKR said she 
> wouldn't reveal it because it would give too much away.  That 
> implies something about Snape's patronus BEFORE the events on the 
> tower -- unless you are wanting to postulate that JKR is being 
> slipshod with language and forgetting that although it might 
> be "after HBP time" for her it is still "before HBP time" for her 
> listeners.  That's possible, but doesn't strike me as likely in 
> this case.  It is much more plausible that JKR meant exactly what
> she said, that Snape's patronus AS OF THE TIME OF THE QUESTION,
>  i.e. pre-HBP, would give too much away.  

Jen: You are saying JKR didn't tell us Snape's patronus before HBP 
because it would give away his evil nature prior to his big reveal 
on the tower? She could also be saving the surprise that despite 
what we see on the tower, Snape is not evil and we could deduce that 
from his patronus. McGongall & Co. are going to be in shock, forget 
the patronus sign, etc. if that's what JKR needs them to do to save 
her secret for book 7 ;). 

Another thing she could have been hiding prior to HBP is that a 
patronus can change. And if Snape's does indeed change, it would be 
too much to reveal b/c people would wonder *why* it changed.

Jen