Dumbledore's trust in Tom Riddle and Snape

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 140787

> Alla:
> 
> I really love Hickengruendler's posts and I read that one. I 
> disagree with it, because I think that in case of Tom Riddle that 
is 
> EXACTLY what Dumbledore did - relied on blind faith, even if he 
> disagrees with it.
> 
> I mean, yes, Harry is asking Albus:
> 
> "But you didn't really trust him, sir, didn't you? He told me ...  
> the Riddle who come out of that diary said, " Dumbledore never 
> seemed to like as much as other teachers did."
> "Let us say that I did not take it for granted that he was 
> trustworthy," said Dumbledore." "I had ,as I have already 
indicated, 
> resolved to keep a close eye on him, and so I did. I cannot 
pretend 
> that I gleaned a great deal from my observations at first.  ...
> However, he had the sense never to try and charm me as he charmed 
so 
> many of my colleagues" - HBP, p.361.
> 
> 
> So far, so good, right? Dumbledore observes young Riddle at 
school. 
> But let's back track a couple of paragraphs back.
> 
> 
> "He seemed polite, quiet, and thirsty for knowledge. Nearly all 
were 
> most favorably impressed by him"
> "Didn't you tell them, sir, what he'd been like when you met him 
at 
> the orphanage?" asked Harry - p.361.
> 
> Basically, I interpret Harry's question as " Did you DO something 
> about your suspicions, Sir?"
> 
> What is Dumbledore's answer?
> 
> "No, I did not. Though he had shown no hint of remorse, it was 
> possible that he felt sorry for how he had behaved before and was 
> resolved to turn over a fresh leaf. I chose to give him that 
> chance" - p.361.
> 
> If this is not a sign of blind faith, I don't know what is. What 
USE 
> is it for anybody else if Dumbledore does not inform anybody  that 
> young Riddle already was quite creepy individual at eleven?
> 
> Notice, Dumbledore does not even say that Riddle SHOWED remorse 
for 
> how he behaved. Dumbledore says it is POSSIBLE that he showed 
> remorse and still he decides to bring him to Hogwarts.
> 
> What USE it is for anybody else if Dumbledore was not charmed by 
> young Riddle? Everybody else was and they did not know to be wary 
of 
> Tom, because Dumbledore did not tell them.
> 
> Hmmm, maybe Slugghorn would have been more careful and would not 
> admitted him to his little club. Maybe then  Tom would have never 
> learned that Horcruxes creation is  a definite possibility?
> 
> Maybe if Dumbledore told Slugghorn to inform his students to be 
> careful of Tom, he would have never be able to form his little 
gang?
> 
> 
> I see loads of possible parallels with how Dumbledore dealt with 
> Snape, although of course mostly speculative.
> 
> 
> Maybe Dumbledore thought that it was POSSIBLE  that Snape showed 
> remorse for what he did, but he really did not and Dumbledore 
still 
> chose to give him that chance.
> 
> Maybe Dumbledore should have informed at least members of OOP and 
> tell Harry about why he trusts Snape?
> 
> I think it is possible that Dumbledore either did not exercised 
> caution with Snape, or only THOUGHT that he exercised caution as 
he 
> did with Riddle,when he decided to observe both men.
> 
> 
> I think it is a huge possibility that in both instances his powers 
> of observation sadly failed him.

SisterMagpie:

I would say, though, that there are some important distinctions 
between these two situations.  First, Tom Riddle is a child who is 
just being given a chance to enter a new situation.  DD has chosen 
to let him turn over a new leaf.  If DD started telling people he 
got a weird vibe from this Riddle kid, that he's used his magic to 
have power over others before then yes, Slughorn might not have said 
anything about Horcruxes or even allowed Tom into the Slug Club, but 
it's also likely the teachers would be biased against him at 11 
years old.  Tom's childhood was spent in an orphanage, which is a 
completely unloving environment.  He thought he was crazy, didn't 
know he was a wizard.  I can completely see DD feeling that it would 
not be fair to bring him to a new situation, a whole new life, and 
prejudice teachers against him by saying that he had a problem with 
him--this is probably a chance given to all kids who come to 
Hogwarts. (In fact, arriving at Hogwarts with a reputation is often 
portrayed as a difficult thing--Ron's supposed to be a Weasley, 
Harry's thought to be his father, Neville's stuck with his father's 
wand.) Given the fact that Tom on the surface was not breaking rules 
that DD could see, was not bullying other students or killing 
rabbits, I think DD had good reason to think he should give young 
Tom a chance.  Like sealing his juvenile records.

Actually, if I were going to draw a parallel here I might connect it 
to young Lupin who was also dangerous when he came to the school.  
If DD shared the fact that Remus was a werewolf Snape would possibly 
not have gone into the Shrieking Shack, but DD kept Remus' secret 
presumably at least in part to make sure there was no prejudice 
against him.

Regardless, the problem here is not that DD saw good in people that 
wasn't there, since he himself does not see good in Tom.  It's an 
act of faith to give Tom a chance despite his misgivings, but when 
Snape is talking to Bellatrix I think he paints DD as more of a 
sucker. Young Snape no doubt got the same chance as Tom when he came 
to Hogwarts, but when he comes back later he's an adult and can no 
longer just require the benefit of the doubt.  Look, for instance, 
at the way DD warns Harry about Slughorn when they meet.  He does 
let Harry have his own first impression of Slughorn, but also shares 
his own personal thoughts on the man.  I don't know if I've ever 
heard DD analyze a child's personality the way he does with adults 
(the closest I can think is his implication that the Dursleys have 
ruined Dudley, which is made when Dudley is almost 17, and is rather 
out of the ordinary).

In Snape's case, there's two aspects at work that are different from 
Tom's, imo.  The first is why DD trusted Snape (did he really just 
have to see the good in everyone) and the second is why he expected 
other people to trust Snape.  Both of these are not quite like they 
were with Tom. First, DD never did completely trust Riddle--he may 
not have shared his doubts but he didn't trust him himself.  With 
Snape it appears he did trust him himself, which suggests to me he 
had some reason to trust him (he doesn't ever consider letting Tom 
Riddle teach at Hogwarts).  Personally I think it went beyond Snape 
just showing remorse that was fake, especially since that very 
question seems to be brought up and not answered in HBP.  Isn't 
there a point where DD seems like he's going to say something to 
Harry but doesn't?  Harry leaps to the conclusion that it was 
Snape's tale of remorse after the Prophecy, and Snape himself says 
he spun a tale of remorse, but the fact that DD does not confirm 
this story seems like important information intentionally witheld 
from us.  It suggests, to me, that there was an actual reason DD 
wasn't sharing.

And that's the second aspect--why does DD expect other people to 
trust Snape?  He doesn't share his reasons for trusting a known 
criminal, so nobody but him really has good reason to trust him.  
This is the opposite of what was going on with Riddle.  There DD let 
people come to their own conclusions, even if he did not agree with 
them.  Here he *did* speak up, saying that he knew other people 
didn't agree, but they should adopt his view of Snape as their own 
without proof.  This is kind of a rare thing for DD--usually he 
doesn't interfere and lets people come to their own conclusions.  In 
fact, he does a similar thing with Voldemort in the other direction, 
telling Professor Dippet he's not comfortable with Tom Riddle being 
a professor at Hogwarts but--again--he doesn't tell him why. He 
never interfered to defend Riddle against bad impressions others had 
as he does with Snape.

So for me DD's problem just doesn't seem to be about having to see 
the good in people.  That, to me, reads like something that DEs 
would want to hear or think.  It's pretty common for the bad guys to 
think that way, to assume that "good" means being a sucker, that any 
good seen in someone is just wishful thinking.  Evil lacks 
imagination.  No, DD's problem as illustrated here is more, imo, 
that he trusts too much in his own powers and cleverness.  He sees 
the truth of things to a greater extent than most, but thinks he can 
just take care of things himself and nobody else needs to be 
informed.  

For instance, he made a big mistake with Sirius thinking it would 
not be a disaster to leave him at Grimmauld Place, but his mistake 
was not in thinking Sirius was a good guy. Snape could be the one 
person with whom he made this mistake, but as of now I don't really 
believe it.  Perhaps an even better example is from HBP: DD should 
have listened to Harry about Draco, but the problem wasn't that DD 
was mistaken about the "good" in Draco--he knew Draco was trying to 
kill him and why, and was very accurate in guessing his mental 
state.  He grasped the situation better than Harry in most ways.  
What he missed was that Draco had figured out a way to get DEs into 
Hogwarts.  He trusted in his cleverness, not his trust in the good. 
That's more like his usual mistakes--he understands Sirius' hatred 
of Grimmauld Place, and Harry's love for and desire to protect 
Sirius.  His mistake is in underestimating his ability to control 
the results of these feelings.  I don't think it ever occurred to 
him teen!Harry could escape from Hogwarts and get to the MoM, just 
as it never occurred to him teen!Draco could get through defenses 
the greatest adult wizards could not.

In the Draco situation, luckily, we may finally have broken through 
the second-hand trust, though.  Throughout the year Dumbledore just 
kept telling Harry not to worry about Draco, that DD was taking care 
of it.  At the end of HBP Harry knows the details and so can 
understand why DD had the view of Draco he does.  Harry's feelings 
of pity for Draco at the end are not due to DD telling him that he 
pities Draco so Harry should too, it's because it was all played out 
in front of him.  For the first time Harry attempted to observe 
someone more objectively--at first Harry was just trying to look for 
clues to Draco's plan, but as he watched he started to see things 
more from Draco's pov.  He wound up coming up with an impression 
closer to Dumbledore's.

-m