Bullying WAS: Re: Prodigal Sons

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 140845


> > Alla:
> > 
> > They do mention that Snape never lost a chance to hex James. It is 
> > good enough for me. 

> Magda:
> That was after sixth year, not in the years preceding.  


Valky:

I believe, Magda, that you are mistaken in claiming this is absolute
canon. Lupin does not say specifically "...as of then Snape started
Hexing James at every opportunity", he says Snape "never" lost and
opportunity to hex James. 'Never' meaning - not ever; at no time in
the past or future, cannot be construed to indicate a specific period
of time without explicit identification of that period. To say, that
Lupin is referring only to Snapes actions as of sixth year, is
speculation, albeit fairly well based. 

IMO, Alla has the right interpretation of it. Snape was a special case
in James life, their animosity was mutual, and Sirius argues strongly
in POA for the case that Snape managed, intentionally, to be malignant
toward the Marauders in general during their school years. 

The simplest straightforward read of this set of variable things
(including POA with OOtP) is that Snape was *not* entirely a nice
innocent boy who would never have done harm if the bad spoiled
Marauders hadn't tortured him constantly for 'obviously' spurious
reasons. It's that Snape had, has and always will have a nasty,
dangerous mean streak, of sadism, if you will. 

May I politely suggest that perhaps your own interpretation is
slightly coloured by a determination to believe that Snape is an angel?



> > Magda:
> > <SNIP>
> >  So the idea that VOldemort was upfront and taking
> > > out billboard advertising about his real intentions is not
> > > established.  
> > 
> > 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > What kind of "good intentions" could exist for joining Voldemort? 
> > I am curious now.
>
 
> Magda:
> Don't misquote me.  I never said "good intentions".  I said that
> young people often join gangs (criminal ones) and cults for all 
> kinds of reasons - and they do.  And we have Sirius' comment that 
> people thought Voldemort had the "right idea" at first, and that 
> even his family - who he has no incentive to excuse for anything - 
> backed away once they realized what he was really all about.  
> 

Valky:
If I am reading your meaning correctly Magda, then this reasoning
clashes with the assumption that Snape calling Lily 'Mudblood' in the
pensieve was out of character. You say yourself, the Blacks though LV
had the right idea, so he did to some degree advertise his intentions
as a purebloodist vindicator. I think it's either Snape was or he
wasn't buying into the purebloodist agenda, but I don't think it can
be both. Out of curiousity do you read the insult in the pensieve as
evidence that Snape has pureblood prejudice, or do you buy into other
theories which explain why he doesn't?
 
OTOH I think the reason/s that Snape joined the DE's are fairly
logically given. Voldemort had power, knowledge and no fear of the
Dark Arts, I think we are definitely beyond arguing that this would
not appeal to canon Snape. It would. Other factors most likely played
a part in his choice such as he wasn't popular in the general
graduating community, he already had friends involved with DE and
Voldemort - these things would certainly open the door for him into
the DE world, but I think they are peripheral and his main interest in
it, what his older friends probably used to sell the DE to him, and
what he thought he would find in Voldemorts following, was the freedom
to explore, practise and discover the secrets of his most favourite
and beloved subject. the reasons for him leaving the DE's are less
clear, and it is those I think we should wonder about the most.

JKR has warned us in interview to be aware, Snape was a Death Eater,
and it is given there that he has done some awful things in his life. 
I think he participated, at least once or twice, in the heinous
cruelties that the DE's are reknowned for, I wouldn't be surprised if
at first he was quite thrilled with it. Its continuity of the
character to assume that he enjoyed being a nasty git when he was a
DE. He enjoys it now, why should he have liked it any less then?

Going off on my own sort of tangent here, I don't think that people
change. The intimation is certainly touted plenty, but I don't think
that makes it true. What others call change in a person I call change
in the person's perspective and understanding, the person themselves
remains the same. I think that Vivian and I are alike in reading Snape
as essentially the same person throughout it all, and I agree with
Vivian on that because I think JKR also builds her characters upon
this philosophy. Snape's mean vindictive behaviour is not the tragic
legacy of his lonely childhood, it's his real personality. His
childhood, his torment, is fuel for that fire, but the spark is in
Snape himself. 

As a schoolboy he followed the Marauders around spied on them, and
according to Sirius, enjoyed finding out things about them that could
get them in trouble. He never missed an oportunity to hex James Potter.
As a DE he spied on Dumbledore looking for ways to make trouble for
Dumbledores Order of the Phoenix. We really shouldn't rule out that he
hurt people here too.
As a teacher he follows Harry around, and up until very recently he
enjoyed equally being able to catch Harry doing something out of line
that would get him into trouble. He also seems to have gotten pleasure
out of hurting Harry.

The nasty cruel streak is consistent in his personality. This is who
he is, who he chooses to be. I don't find it hard to believe that
Snape might have gone in for bullying at some other time in his life.
Either as a DE or as part of the Slytherin crowd he has the makings of
someone who would enjoy bullying. 

Of course that doesn't mean that he *was* a bully kid. Although I
don't agree, really, its a valid speculation, IMO. But I don't know
for sure that it would become canon.

Valky