OFH! Snape again. WAS: Straightforward readings?

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 140861

houyhnhnm:
> It's hard to believe that Voldemort really bought Snape's story
> when he returned.  More likely that Snape created just enough
> doubt to keep himself alive while LV waited for proof of Snape's
> treachery or for the opportunity to use and punish Snape at the
> same time.

Jen: Also very hard to believe: Voldemort was relying solely on 
Draco to carry out this most important deed. LOL! No. There was more 
to this plan than punishing Lucius. Every book, minus POA, we see a 
convoluted Voldemort plan with a clearly defined goal: The Stone, 
opening the chamber, transporting Harry to the graveyard, luring 
Harry to the prophecy, and this time around, killing Dumbledore 
(which btw, I thought was a much better strategy than his past ones; 
seems like he should have started with this one <g>). Narcissa is 
definitely the operator in this one, out of desperation, but 
Voldemort's agent nonetheless.

The other notable plot development we always see is Voldemort's 
ultimate failure: Yes, he opened the chamber but failed to return to 
human form; yes he transported Harry to the graveyard, but failed to 
kill him; yes, he lured Harry to the DOM, but failed to get the 
prophecy; yes, he managed to get Dumbledore killed, but.....? Book 7 
as the second-half of Book 6 will answer this, I think, and I'm 
talking about an answer *before* the big ending. Some flaw Voldemort 
underestimated by having Dumbledore killed (and maybe specifically 
killed by Snape?).

(All I know is I'm still waiting for my Dumbledore explanation, and 
since we didn't get one in the flesh, I'm waiting for him to do so 
via letter, Pensieve, etc.)

> houyhnhnm:
> For me, the idea that Voldemort was behind the UV fits into the
> DD'sMan!Snape theory. We see how carefully Snape arranges his
> emotions to safeguard himself from Voldemort's Legilimency.  He
> won't even break bread with the other members of the Order.
 
> We see the extent to which Dumbledore shares his concern.
> Dumbledore leaves Harry feeling alone and rejected for a whole
> year because he is afraid that Voldemort might find out and make
> use of his affection for Harry.

Jen: Good thoughts. Would also add the use of the Pensieve for 
Occlumency to hide his memories from Voldemort, rather than Harry, 
in case Harry did exactly what he did. Surely this was Dumbledore's 
idea though, Snape wouldn't believe Mediocre!Harry would be capable 
of such a thing. Anyway, I'm with the people who have proposed 
Snape's Worst Memory was still hidden in the Pensieve, most likely 
the events of the GH incident--that's the one he needs to hide from 
LV if he truly changed sides.

houyhnhnm: 
> What if the same dynamic was at work in the relationship between
> Snape and Dumbledore?  Snape careful never to step out of his role
> as dutiful employee, never even to call Dumbledore by name. 
> Dumbledore careful never to show Snape any mark of personal regard.

Jen: I never considered this, but it must be true. A certain 
distance between them, even during those long years Voldemort was 
vapor, because Snape can have no memories of a personal relationship.

houyhnhnm:
> Then Dumbledore receives a nearly fatal curse while retrieving and
> destroying the ring horcrux. We never learn the details. There are
> so many other parallels between Harry and Snape in HBP. It has me
> wondering if there wasn't a parallel "I am not worried ... I am
> with you."

Jen: Those parallels were there, both Snape and Harry were 
Dumbledore's men, I believe. It's no accident both were with 
Dumbledore that fated night, his two most important & trusted 
lieutenants. Whether one followed the path of betrayl and one 
remained loyal remains to be seen, but a Snape betrayl where the 
*bad* son would live up to the predictions and follow that course, 
and the shining son remain unsullied and loyal? Bleh. Stereotyping. 

houyhnhnm:
> What if the defenses of both men were breached at the time that
> Snape saved Dumbledore from the curse?  What if, never having had
> feelings of affection to repress, Snape wasn't able to shield the
> change in his relationship with Dumbledore from Voldemort? 
> Voldemort realized his moment was come and the trap was set.  The
> perfect punishment.  Make Snape kill the only person who cared 
> about him, the only person the adult Snape had ever managed to
> love, and get rid of The Only One He Ever Feared at the same time.

Jen: "In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools 
who love to act." Bingo. (ootp, chap. 37, p. 838) And especially a 
punishment to kill a loving father-figure, since we know Voldemort 
has a few *issues* with fathers. I'm almost certain JKR was 
referring to Dumbeldore when she said Snape had been loved. Well, 
maybe his mommy too, but Dumbledore would be the important one for 
the story.

Houyhnhnm:
> As for the tower, I think both Snape and Dumbledore tried to
> prevent such a scene from taking place all year, but once they
> were all arrived there nobody had a choice.

Jen: Possibly Snape didn't tell DD the third vow? We've seen loyal 
Order members attempt to solve their own problems without 
Dumbledore's knowledge and/or agreement: The Secret Keeper plan for 
the Potters; Lupin not revealing the animagi in POA; Sirius going to 
the DOM, for starters. But if Dumbledore knew everything, then I 
agree they planned together to put off the moment as long as 
possible, neither knowing Draco was succeeding with the cabinent.

houyhnhnm: 
> The real test for Snape would have come when Dumbledore arrived
> back at the castle, poisoned, with no successful Draco plot, no
> DE's in the castle.  Would Snape have tried to save Dumbledore's
> life or not? We'll never know and neither will Snape.  Hence
> the "DON'T CALL ME COWARD!"

Jen: That comment & the entire moment still bother me from a 
narrative perspective (I think that's the right term). Other people 
have mentioned how the howling dog in the background was meant to 
bring up Padfoot, and I guess Snape's betrayl of Sirius? But I read 
that moment as *Snape* being compared to the howling dog in pain and 
found it poignant. Anyone have a thought on this? 

Jen