Bullying WAS: Re: Prodigal Sons

[zgirnius]

No: HPFGUIDX 140873


> Finwitch:
> 
> No, I don't think so. Harry said: "for no good reason," did he not? 
And 
> let's not forget the Pettigrew-business in the Shack. And that 
Crouch 
> authorised Aurors to use Unforgivables, put Sirius to jail without 
a 
> trial... In addition, Harry's under such an ordeal having his word 
> doubted, they may need to break off the discussion very fast... No, 
> going to the playground 'who started it' just isn't a good option. 
It's 
> who stopped it that matters.

zgirnius:
Yes, I suppose admitting that James engaged in bullying behavior in 
younger years and stopped in year 6 or 7 might be reassuring to 
Harry. (Snape and James apparently carried on the vendetta. But that 
could be a one-on-one thing which would not bother Harry, I imagine.) 

Except that this is not mentioned in answer to Harry's question about 
an attack "for no reason".  Sirius just says he's not proud of their 
behavior, and he and Remus enter into an explanation of how "cool", 
popular, and brilliant James and Sirius were. That James reformed is 
brought up later, when Harry wonders why Lily ever started to like 
James.

Finwitch:
> And as Harry's supposed to take Occlumency from Snape, it's NOT a 
good 
> idea to tell him all the bad things Snape did in school, seeing as 
> Harry's not in a good relationship with Snape as it is... So no - 
they 
> just tell him that 'James grew out of it.' Quite apparently, Snape 
has 
> not. 

zgirnius:
Well, they mention that Snape and James were always enemies, always 
hexing each other. And, as you point out, Harry already has reasons 
of his own to have serious problems with Snape. I don't think a well-
placed story about Snape and his "Slytherin Gang" picking on some 
poor little Gryffindor underclassman the previous week would cause 
Harry to reevaluate his relationship with Snape. (Assuming there 
*were* in fact such an incident to tell.) 

Lupin is clearly concerned about the Occlumency lessons continuing, 
since it belatedly occurs to him that of course this whole incident 
may have caused a problem. So is Sirius. However, Sirius hasn't shied 
away from saying bad things about Snape in Harry's presence in the 
past. Of course, those things were said in Snape's presence too, 
Sirius may not really have been able to help himself despite these 
concerns...

Finwitch:
> Just look at what Snape does in the Shrieking Shack! At least 
> Lupin acted maturedly most of time - and I've always been of the 
> opinion that Snape as adult has been constantly acting like a 
> teenager. 
> (and he doesn't have hormonal disbalance like the REAL teens do, 
so...)


zgirnius:
A defense of the adult Snape's actions vis a vis Harry is beyond the 
scope of my argument. I am not sure I would care to attempt it, as I 
don't find some opf his actions particularly defensible. I just 
happen to think that Snape was an oddball, and a loner, and an 
aficionado of the Dark Arts, when he came to Hogwarts. He immediately 
involved himself in an enmity with James Potter, which turned out to 
be a very unwise and unhappy choice on his part, as James led a very 
popular gang of Gryffindors who enjoyed picking on him. These 
circumstances contributed to Snape's becoming the thoroughly horrible 
person we now love to hate (or just hate, as the case may be...)

I personally don't find Snape's actions in the Shack all that 
incomprehensible or obkectionable. Sirius was a convicted mass-
murderer. And to Snape, as we know now, he was so much more. And I 
mean adult crimes, not their schoolboy differences. If Dumbledore's 
story about Snape's remorse is to be believed, at some point Snape 
deeply regretted telling Voldemort the Prophecy and endangering the 
Potters, and did all he could to atone for this. As far as he knew in 
that scene, *Sirius* was the man who made all of his efforts go for 
naught. If a part of his reasons was an attachment to Lily (as some 
have theorized) he would have an even *more* personal reason for 
hating Sirius. 

And this all *on top* of his hatred born of "the Prank" and other 
schoolboy incidents involving them both. To expect him to be 
immediately open to a reevaluation of Sirius' character on the say-so 
of Sirius and Lupin is not reasonable. Snape would quite reasonably 
have felt any and all remarks by them were just attempts to play for 
time. 

In fact, I am reminded on the recent thread (was Harry an idiot to 
believe Snape murdered DD in cold blood?). All Harry's experiences to 
date confirm his view that Snape is a bad guy. Then Snape kills 
DD...what is Harry *supposed* to think? By analogy, all Snape's 
school experiences led him to believe Sirius is a bad guy. Then, 
Sirius betrays the Potters to Voldemort and kills Peter Pettigrew and 
13 Mugles. What is Snape *supposed* to think?

While I personally would find his feeding Sirius to the Dementors 
over the top, this would alas have been an entirely legal action in 
the eyes of the MoM (demostrating the corruptness of that 
institution, but anyway...) 

Now, arranging to feed *Lupin* to the Dementors, as he threatened, 
would definitely have been over the line, but I am not convinced that 
such was his intention. I tend to think he was just gloating over his 
final vindication (he thought, sucker!) in his opinions of both men.  
(We'll never know, thanks to the quick actions of the Trio!)