UV = DDM?

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 140887

Mira wrote:
 
Now, the way I see it, this could have three  possible
explanations:

1. Dumbledore does not know about the UV, in  which
case:

1a) Snape is ESE or OFH, or:

1b) Snape did not tell  Dumbledore about the UV
because he knew that Dumbledore would  sacrifice
himself and Snape wanted to be the one who dies, but
this is  completely at odds with how I read Snape's
character, or perhaps:

1c)  Snape did not tell Dumbledore about the UV
because he knew that Dumbledore  would ask him to do
the murder, and he still hoped that Draco would do  it,
but this does not agree with the fact the Snape wanted
to protect  Draco through and through.

2. Dumbledore knows about the UV, but does not  tell
Draco because he does not want Draco to be entirely
sure that Snape  is DDM, not at this point (in order to
protect Snape if Draco does manage to  become a
murderer).

3. Dumbledore knows about the UV but does not  tell
Draco because Draco would know that if the UV has
indeed happened,  either Dumbledore or Snape would have
to die, then he would probably expect  Snape to kill
Dumbledore anyway and endeavor to do it himself in
order to  lap up all the glory.

There might be less twisted explanations of the  scene,
but right now I cannot come up with anything else. Of
all the  possibilities listed above, I must concede
that 1a is the least problematic,  if not the only one
who can sail. 1c might have some merits,  too.
 
 
Julie now:
I'm just curious, since you didn't add a rebuttal "but" clause
to #2, exactly what is wrong with it that it doesn't have 
solid merit like 1a &1c. I happen to like #2 myself, and 
it's not really convoluted (though #3 is, IMO).
 
 
Mira:

One very important point for me is the timing of the
events  described in chapters two and three of the HBP.
Let me discuss two possible  timelines:

A) Snape takes the UV, then runs to Dumbledore to tell
him,  and Dumbledore decides to let Snape kill him.
Since it is his last year at  Hogwarts anyway,
Dumbledore gives Snape the DADA position, Snape
remains  DDM through and through.

B) Dumbledore gives Snape the DADA position,  which in
turn makes the UV come into being. This is, I believe,
the  chronology that you also favor, Betsy.

My question is: if B is true, why  would Dumbledore
decide to give Snape the DADA job, in the first  place?

I believe that the answer is: Dumbledore gave Snape
the DADA  position deliberately in order to prevent
Draco from succeeding in his  mission. Snape told
Bellatrix in Chapter 2 that Voldemort would have  liked
Draco to kill Dumbledore and Snape to remain in his
position as a  spy against the Order. This is, I
believe, exactly what Dumbledore wanted to  prevent
when he made Snape DADA professor.
 
 
Julie now:
I think there is another possibility, especially if  Dumbledore
is dying from the Ring Horcrux. He is running out of  time,
and has to prepare Harry as best he can with borrowed time
he does have left. That means Harry needs to learn about 
his enemy (so Dumbledore suddenly takes a very active
teaching role, showing Harry how Tom became Voldemort),
Harry needs to learn about Horcruxes (so Dumbledore must
get Slughorn to Hogwarts to access that memory of his), and
Harry needs to learn about nonverbal spells (so Dumbledore
gives Snape--the most skilled wizard he has at hand--the 
DADA  position). Dumbledore has to do it all this school year
because he knows he won't be around next school year. 
 
Dumbledore probably knew he'd need Snape in that DADA
position one day, and he wasn't about to waste him there
until the risk of losing him was outweighed by the gain. 
Whether he gives Snape the position before or after the UV,
he also knows if he's gone then Snape is gone. If Snape is
ever going to make full use of his spy position and completely
infiltrate Voldemort's camp, then this will be the time, since 
Dumbledore's death--naturally or by someone else's hand--is 
the event Voldemort is waiting for so he can move into the 
final phase of his planned takeover of the WW. 
 
I also submit that even if Dumbledore isn't dying from the
Ring Horcrux, he seems determined to go after another 
one, which turns out to be in the Cave, and he may know  
a second horcrux curse in his damaged state *will* kill
him. 
 


Mira:

If this is true, Dumbledore cannot have such a 100%
trust in Snape  as he pretends. Dumbledore knew the
DADA  job would bring the worst in  Snape, he must have
had a very strong reason to take this risk.  So
Dumbledore certainly accepted to sacrifice himself -
not only in order  to spare Draco becoming a murderer,
but also in order to prevent Snape for  staying on at
Hogwarts after Dumbledore dies. In this scenario, the
fact  that Harry was a witness to the crime was (also
a) direct results of the DADA  jinx, but none of these
means that Snape is DDM or that Dumbledore  himself
really believed in Snape's loyality.
 
Julie:
I'm not sure I see how this proves Dumbledore didn't 
trust Snape. Again, if he figures one way or the other
Snape will no longer be at Hogwarts, giving him the 
DADA position  doesn't change that outcome. 
 

Mira:

All this leads, I believe, to a decent explanation for
Dumbledore's  pleading: he did not beg Snape to kill
(if 1a then there was no need for  Snape to kill
Dumbledore) or spare him (since Dumbledore was not
afraid of  death, indeed, he seemed to have embraced
the idea quite early on in Book 6):  Dumbledore pleaded
with Snape to remain on the side of the good,  to
continue helping Harry and the Order even if nobody
would know about  this and even if his faith would be
payed with suspicion and hate. This  definitely is
something which I see Dumbledore pleading for.
 
Julie:
I agree that Dumbledore was pleading for Snape to  
continue protecting Harry, and Hogwarts, and help the
Order, even if his only reward was suspicion and hate. 
But he also knew Snape was about to kill him, and I have
to believe his words and whatever silent communication 
passed between them also addressed that fact. I don't 
think he was telling Snape in so many words to kill him, 
but encouraging Snape to do what *must* be done to keep
Harry and Hogwarts safe, i.e.--"You must strike the final
blow. I'm already dying, you can't save me, so you must 
save yourself." (And Harry, Hogwarts, Draco, etc). 
 
Mira:

In any case, if Dumbledore did not know about the UV
then I  really don't see much possibility for Snape to
be DDM (unless his concern for  Draco has always been a
facade, but this is not how it sounded to  me).

Sorry if all this sounds a bit convoluted, it is quite
late here,  but it is the only time when I can
read/reply.

Julie:
I quite agree  that DDM is hard to fathom if Dumbledore didn't
know about the UV, but I believe he did, and there are several
clues in the book that support that conclusion. 
 
Julie 




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