[HPforGrownups] Identifying Enemies (was:Bullying WAS: Re: Prodigal Sons)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 140910

Betsy Hp:
>> Enemy? Who said anything about enemies?  I, for one, would be
>> completely shocked if Hagrid turned out to be a closet Death
>> Eater.  However he did physically attack a Muggle child because 
>> that child's father angered him.  Dudley wasn't seriously hurt 
>> (though he was forced to undergo surgery), and I'm sure Hagrid 
>> acted out of anger rather than prejudice.  But at the same time 
>> JKR has never had Snape act in a similar fashion.

Allie:
> But it wasn't because he was a muggle, it was because they were both
> "stupid gits."

Magpie:

Betsy just said she wasn't arguing that Hagrid was a DE or acting out of prejudice (that's a strawman), just that as it happens, Snape has never gotten a scene where he's done anything to any Muggle and it just so happens Hagrid gave one's child a tail in anger that had to be surgically removed in hospital.  (Which is, imo, Muggle-baiting by defintion--you're not supposed to tease or harm Muggles with Magic that they can not use back at you--why should it matter whether the Muggle is a jerk or not?  When it comes to Muggle-baiting the MUGGLE part is more important than the BAITING part.)

Betsy's point is perfectly true: if DEs are about harming Muggles, we 
haven't seen Snape do that yet in canon.  He's never been in any scenes with Muggles as far as we know.  That doesn't prove he's a nice guy or didn't possibly murder Muggles as a DE, or that he's DDM now.  But Betsy was only saying that we've never seen him "acting like a DE" in that way in the series.

Allie:
> I never got the impression that Molly believed the story because
> Hermione is a muggle-born.  It's just JKR playing on the press and
> telling us not to believe everything we read.

Magpie:

That was the main point of the story (though I admit I do wonder if Molly is more likely to mistrust Hermione given her beng Muggleborn) but Molly's reaction to the Skeeter articles was not the main point.  The main point is that if DEs talk about Muggles as inferior then we don't have many examples of Snape talking about Muggle things as inferior or otherwise.  We have more examples of Molly doing that.   This does not mean Molly is a DE or Snape is good.


Allie:
> Again - it's only because Dudley's such a little pig that that
> happens at all.  Has nothing to do with being a muggle.

Magpie:

I'm trying to keep this out of the "the twins are evil/no they aren't" area, but Arthur identifies what they do in that scene as Muggle-baiting because they intentionally played a magical trick on a Non-Magical person.  And they claim to have done it because they wanted someone to test their products on--seems pretty straightforward Muggle-baiting to me, albeit the baiting of 
Muggles who were mean to their friend.  It's a Magical Prank played on a Muggle.

Also, the only reason anything happens is not that Dudley is "such a little pig."  (That defense--and I'm sure this wasn't your intention--sounds disturbingly as if Muggle-baiting might be bad but "pigs" (overweight people) deserve to be humiliated, frightened or hurt.)  What happens happens because the twins leave candy out hoping someone will pick it up and eat it--the whole thing goes according to their plan.  The person who set the trap isn't absolved of responsibility because another person falls for it. For example, if someone intentionally left a cursed galleon on the floor of the Weasley house and one of them picked it up and died I would not dismiss it as, "Well, the only reason that happened was that they're such little 
money-grubbers."

The main point Betsy is making is still that there are a limited number of Muggles we've ever seen zapped by hexes from wizards (something DEs are known for), and none of them, as far as we know, came from Snape. This does not mean those wizards were DEs themselves, or evil, or that Snape is the nicer person.  She was just answering the idea that we'd seen Snape "acting like a DE" throughout the series.

Allie:
> (I know this thread was about Snape and being a death eater, but I
> really don't believe that JKR is painting the twins as anything
> other than Merry Pranksters, I know this has been the subject of
> much debate.)


Magpie:

I would agree that JKR probably wants us to see the twins as merry 
pranksters (though I think she is aware of their darker side and doesn't always think their intentions are good), but since Betsy's post wasn't about that she can't be said to be arguing against it. She made a specific, limited point about Snape, which is that we've never seen him hex a Muggle, trick a Muggle, Transfigure a Muggle or even, as far as I can recall--talk about Muggles.  So I think she was challenging the idea that he was "acting like a Death Eater (as opposed to just a jerk, for instance)?" all through canon, since it obviously didn't refer to his tormenting Muggles or Muggleborns.

-m