Snape's first lesson (Was: Harry's bias again)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 140937

> Carol responds:
> I can't see how questioning Harry about bezoars, asphodel and
> wormwood, etc., can in any way be construed as "punishment."

Alla:

Because as we debated many months ago, TO ME it is highly unlikely 
that first years  are given any homework, since muggle borns have 
very little idea what magic is in general and it is not very wise 
(IMO of course) to give them homework, before they ever met a teacher 
and gotten any instructions on how to proceed as such.

Therefore asking Harry something which Snape KNOWS  that he does not 
know is at very least unfair and IMO can be constituted as singling 
out and bullying.

Oh, the fact that Hermione knows it does not convince me  that 
homework was given of course ( Just wanted to say to preface 
rebuttal) Hermione reads everything all  the time.

Carol:
 It does,
> however, serve several purposes, whether or not Snape intended it to
> do so. First, it establishes that Harry cannot have deliberately
> vaporized Voldemort at age fifteen months, since he seems to have no
> knowledge at all of magic. It consequently diminishes the likelihood
> that he's a Dark Wizard in the making (as Draco and Lucius seem to
> have half-suspected given Draco's initial overtures to Harry).

Alla:

Hmmm,  the thing is that Snape can figure out that Harry is not a 
Dark Lord in making by much easier means - legilimency for example, 
which I don't like, but it is used quite often, or I don't know - 
talk to Dumbledore.
So, my question is why does Snape chooses those ways to make sure 
that Harry is not next Voldie, if that is what Snape doing of course, 
which I am not entirely convinced.


Carol:
 > Once Snape discovers that "our new celebrity" really doesn't 
deserve
> his celebrity status, having clearly done nothing intentional to 
earn
> it, (sentence break)he does sneer at Harry ("Thought you wouldn't 
open a book"), but
> he also takes care to provide him (and the entire class) with the
> answers to his questions and then asks why they're not all taking
> notes. 

Alla:

And again, why simply giving  them the information is not enough? Why 
taking an extra step of humiliating Harry?



Carol:
That question in itself indicates that he has just conveyed
> some very important information (as we discover in HBP when a bezoar
> saves Ron's life). Perhaps, as Potioncat suggests, he always opens 
the
> first lesson with these questions.

Alla:

Perhaps he does, but I would like to hear it from older students to 
be entirely convinced. I would think that Fred and George or Percy 
when he tells Harry about Snape would have told him that Snape is 
peculiar that way - always says the same thing to first years, be 
ready.


Carol:
 Or perhaps he intended to make the
> first lesson memorable to Harry in particular anticipating that he
> might just have a need for a bezoar (or for the Draught of Living
> Death). It's impossible to say, but if he's DD'sMan, I suspect the 
latter.


Alla:

Or perhaps he wanted to make sure that Harry hates him.


Carol: 
> At any rate, he doesn't punish Harry for his ignorance. He only
> deducts a single house point for Harry's "cheek" in suggesting that
> Snape call on Hermione. 

Alla:

Oh, again too bad I am not at home, cannot quote, but I absolutely 
disagree that it was a "cheek" as Snape called it. Harry says it 
quietly and  the way I read it sincerely hoping to let Snape get an 
answer to his question, because as Harry truthfully told him - beforw 
( TWICE, I think), he does not know the answer. But Snape is still 
asking the questions after that.

Carol:
> It's possible that Snape is trying from the outset to keep Harry 
from
> being treated as "a pampered little prince," fearing that such
> treatment will go to his head and turn him into a second James (and 
I
> for one think it's a good thing for Harry and the WW at large that
> Harry doesn't share James's cockiness.) 

Alla:

Same advice to Snape then - talk to Dumbledore, if Snape is indeed 
Dumbledore's most trusted man ( which I disagree with,since JKR said 
that DD has no confidantes), but in case she is wrong on that, surely 
Dumbledore will tell Snape everything he wants to know about Harry's 
life? 



Carol:
<snip>
The point that Harry loses for
> Gryffindor for not helping Neville is just Snape's nastiness, but 
the
> interrogation at the beginning of the class is probably something
> entirely different.

Alla:

As Lebeto said upthread I think that point that Harry looses for not 
helping Neville is a spot on example for "you loose if you do and you 
loose if you did not" strategy which Snape , IMO seems to employ to 
Harry, but I also think that interrogation in the beginning was the 
same thing.

Actually, I think the word "interrogation" you used is very telling 
and I absolutely agree with it.

Don't you think that  the teacher is not supposed to INTERROGATE 
eleven year old muggle born, who has very little clue of WW yet?



Carol:
<SNIP>
Unfortunately for both
> characters (assuming that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore), this
> perceived enmity becomes more real as each behaves in ways that
> reinforce the initial impression. Long before HBP, Snape is 
convinced
> that Harry is arrogant, dishonest, and mediocre; Harry is convinced
> that Snape is not just unfair and unpleasant but evil. 
> 
> But in the first Potions lesson, all this is in the future. 

Alla:

Still don't understand how you arrive at the conclusion that at the 
end of this lesson it is all in the future.

Harry has the memories of Snape doing many nasty things to him during 
this lesson ( IMO only of course), so is Harry supposed to thank 
Snape for that and leave the lesson feeling much love for Snape?

I think that after  the first lesson and for the years to come Snape 
eats  the fruits of his labor,which he so meticulously or not planted 
during that lesson.



Carol:
<SNIP>
> It serves Snape's purpose (to discover the extent of Harry's
> knowledge), but like everything else in the Potterverse, it has
> unintended consequences that extend at least six years into the
> future. I expect to see further consequences, perhaps something
> related to the Draught of Living Death (not to mention the 
culmination
> or resolution of their mutual antagonism), in Book 7.
> 


Alla:

It serves a purpose for  the reader, yes, absolutely. It IS memorable 
and foreshadows the use of bezoar and probably Draught of Living 
Death, but I don't buy that Snape actually intended for Harry to 
remember it six years later.

JMO of course,

Alla