The cave potion and soul pieces (Re: OFH! Snape again )

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 140949

> Valky:
> > Why would Dumbledore order Harry to kill him and then order Snape
> > to cover it up? The Horcrux soul piece was never destroyed by
> > Dumbledore. Oh yeah the ring was destroyed, but the soul piece..
> > <snipping> Snape saved Dumbledores life, and the ring was "....no
> > longer a Horcrux". But did Voldie die in the encounter? Dumbledore
> > never says he did, he never even implies it. And then he gets
> > Harry to kill him one night. How strange...
>
> Jen: I'm guessing you will have an answer for this: "However, a
> withered hand does not seems an unreasonable exchange for a seventh
> of Voldemort's soul." (chap. 23, p.503, Scholastic).

Valky:
Yep <bg>
For one, there is no categorical evidence of that 1/7th of soul being
destroyed. In fact, the text literally says it was an *exchange*, that
it was destroyed is only figuratively implied. I think we should all
be pretty much on the ball now, that when Dumbledore figuratively
implies something, he's usually leaving us to our assumptions. (Saves
lying or misdirecting, allow us to misdirect ourselves)
Without assumptions of what DD 'figuratively' means by 'exchange',
there is no reason at all to think it was destroyed.

OTOH there is more, exchange means trade, swap, I give one I get the
other. If we take it perfectly literally as given then Dumbledore is
with certainty saying that he gave his hand, and got Voldemorts soul
given back to him in return.

Literal Translation:
The ring is no longer a horcrux = LV's soul isn't in the ring
exchange for a seventh of Voldemort's soul = I have it.


> > Valky:
> > OKay, just assuming that my explanation above is the correct one.
> Then how could Harry find this out? Heres my favourite theory.
> > 1. Snape will tell Harry. Woot! won't that be Bangy.
> > "You Killed Dumbledore!!"
> > "No I didn't you half-wit, moron. You did!" (more theories snipped
> here)
>
> Jen: OK, that moment alone might be worth your theory being true!
> Except Snape passed up the perfect opportunity to lay his guilt trip
> on Harry when H. screamed for him to 'kill me, like you did him,
> coward!' (paraphrased).

Valky:
Aha! but read again Jen, they aren't yelling about Dumbledore Harry is
not accusing him of killing Dumbledore, he's accusing him of killing
James.

Paraphrase the context:
"..using my own spells against me like your filthy father did!"
"Go ahead then kill me like you did HIM!"

See, James, not Dumbledore, the opportunity still stands unwasted. <g>


> Jen:
> *************************************************

> So I started wondering--could the potion in the cave have the
> ability to weaken and then possess the person drinking it?

Valky:
I don't understand to what end really, but I do agree it make sense in
relation to LV's experiments as a youngster

Jen:
> Possession would explain how Voldemort was able to keep the potion-
> drinker "alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate
> so far through his defenses, and most importantly of all, why they
> were so intent upon emptying the basin." (chap. 26, p. 569,
> Scholastic)

Valky:
Sorry, Jen, I don't understand how it explains that.


> Jen:
> This might also explain some of the things Dumbledore said that
> night. For instance: "I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop,
> make it stop...KILL ME!" These statements echo Harry at the DOM when
> possessed by Voldemort: "Let the pain stop, thought Harry. Let him
> kill us...End it, Dumbledore..." (chap. 36, p. 816)

Valky:
I definitely agree with tht connection, but then what about the : "Its
all my fault.. I did wrong.." stuff? It doesn't really seem like what
someone would say when being possessed like Harry in the MOM, nor like
anything Voldemort would say.


> Jen:
> Now a potion being able to possess someone seems farfatched except
> we have a precendent for it with the liquid-like substance of
> memories found in a Pensieve and the memory in the diary possessing
> Ginny.

Valky:
I have always liked the comparison with pensieve memories most of all.
I felt there was a few things that seemed to click into place with
that hypothesis, such as Dumbledore and Sluggy pouring their memories
into bottles seems to hint that drinking memories is a done thing (I
proposed once that this might be how someone returns removed memories
to their body.), and the concept of silver vs green where silver
memories are freely given by the owner and green ones would rather be
ones that were stolen.

In the case of the memory in the Diary I am not sure if the memory did
the possessing. I kind of see it more as the softening agent, that
prepares Ginny for the soul piece inside which does the actual
possessing.



> Jen:
> To get to the point--could there be a possession protection on all
> the Horcruxes?

Valky:
I absolutely do think there is. It still confuses me what happens to
them when Harry destroys them though, for some reason or another he
does not get possessed, while I am almost dead certain that, like
Ginny, others do, or at least are attempted on, like Dumbledore.




Jen:
> Because the idea of the withered, blackened hand made
> me think of the power of evil being destroyed by Snape, and as it
> left the body and disintegrated, it would destory the portal through
> which it entered (wand hand). What do you think?
>

Valky:
I really like that actually. I have been mulling over the thought that
somehow Snape and Dumbledore managed to stop the possession and life
drain, but not indefinitely, hence DD preparing for his death. It
would makes sense that the entry point of the curse would reflect the
madness within, and I think this is in the nature of Voldemorts curses
deliberately. For instance in the PS/SS media-TMNBN of Godrics Hollow
(a scene that is sometimes considered canon due to the heavy
consulting of JKR done before filming) Voldies wand points directly at
Harry's dear baby head. Something countered the evil as it entered
Harry and it is reflected back to the world at the entry point.
Likewise Dumbledore, most probably, attacked the ring with his wand,
and the evil would enter at the shortest distance from it hence the
wand hand reflects the damage done to the evil.
In any case, what Snape and Dumbledore managed to do with, and what
was, the curse that was deflected onto DD's hand can only be
speculated, but I think that getting close to the mark would be to
build a hypothsesis that would work for Harry's scar as well.

Valky
Reposting because of super stupido typo that made a section lose all
meaning..