Maligning Lupin

[spotsgal]

No: HPFGUIDX 150529

<snipping issues that Amontillada has dealt with>

>> Christina:
>> ...by giving education and jobs, Dumbledore ensures that the 
>> werewolves can feed themselves.  Even if all the werewolves were 
>> given a wonderful buffet by Voldemort, they'd still be 
>> knowledge-less and unproductive.
 
> Pippin:
> What good is knowing how to fish if they won't let you near the
> river?

Christina:

That's exactly what I'm saying.  Lupin may not have had the greatest
opportunities for paid work, but he had the education to do it. 
Without the education, there was no hope at all.  Lupin knows how to
fish and can only occasionally get to the river.  The other werewolves
don't know how to fish at all.  Lupin has one obstacle to overcome;
the werewolves have two.

Voldemort is (supposedly) throwing his followers some fish, but he
isn't teaching them HOW to fish.  That isn't giving freedom, it's
taking it away.  All he is promising them is a lifetime of revenge and
dependency.


>> Christina:
>> There really *are* people out there who are not passionate people.
 >> It isn't denying somebody "the full range of human emotion" to 
>> describe that attribute in a character.  It's a character trait. 
>> And you might think that anger is the way to respond to prejudice,
>> but that doesn't mean that everybody does.

> Pippin:
> I'm afraid your disagreement is with Jo:
> 
> "It's not possible to live with the Dursleys and not hate them,"
> said Harry. "I'd like to see you try it." -- CoS ch 11
 

Christina:

Harry and Jo aren't the same people, and Harry is most certainly wrong
in this instance.  I highly doubt Jo meant for his comment to be taken
as a fact, as I'm sure there are a great many people who could live
with the Dursleys and be perfectly content, just as there are people
who could live with Voldemort and with Umbridge and be perfectly
content.  Jo doesn't seem to have qualms about denying people their
"full range of human emotion."  Voldemort, for example, has never been
loved by anybody.  Harry doesn't seem particularly angry about Peter
Pettigrew's role as his parents' betrayer (certainly not to the degree
that he should be).

And hatred and anger are not the same exact thing.  They each have
connotational meanings.  I hate lima beans but I'm not angry at them,
I was angry at my mother when she served lima beans but I don't hate her.

Nuance is also extremely important.  That's why, even as an example,
your quote doesn't work.  Because applying what you've been saying to
this event, Harry should look at Voldemort, who hates Muggles (a class
of people that includes the Dursleys), and at Dumbledore, who forced
Harry to live with the Dursleys in the first place, and rethink his
loyalties a little.  But he doesn't.  


>> Christina:
>> I see that as just going to show that even somebody as fair-minded
>> as Hermione has deeply hidden prejudices.  Does Hermione really 
>> know anything about the last war? 
 
> Pippin:
> She's read "Modern Magical History", "The Rise and Fall of the Dark
> Arts" and "Great Wizarding Events of the Twentieth Century." (PS/SS
> ch 6)

Christina:

I'd just like to add to what Amontillada said by pointing out that the
wizardizing society is very (far)history-focused and isn't very
modern.  LV's first reign ended about ten years before the series
begins - that would be like a modern history textbook today including
details of events from 1996.  My general American history textbook
from three years ago summarized everything from the previous two
decades in a paragraph.  We've also seen many examples of how
difficult it can be to get accurate information about sensitive topics
(LV can't find info about Horcruxes, even the Daily Prophet still says
"He Who Must Not Be Named").


>> Christina:
>> I don't understand how this is any different than the status quo
>> explanation.  Whether Lupin changes at the full moon or five 
>> minutes after the full moon or an hour after the full moon, it's 
>> still a predictable time.
 
> Pippin:
> Confronted with this contradiction, JKR answered shortly that the
> moon wasn't up when Lupin went out to the shack, evading the
> question. As you say, she's only evasive when she's got something
> to hide. Why hide that Lupin can predict the time of his
> transformations unless it's important to the plot?

Christina:

I'm still not seeing the difference.  Lupin CAN predict the time of
his transformations, no matter what.

Also, JKR's explanation makes sense unless you can remember the tiny
reference of the moon passing between the clouds (or somesuch) while
Harry2 and Hermione2 are waiting outside the Shack (while Lupin is in
it, and is still untransformed).  JKR is never confronted with that
contradiction, unfortunately.


> Pippin:
> Lupin shows a whole lot of remorse, but if it doesn't change his 
> behavior what good is it? You seem to hope he'll do better next 
> time, but how many next times is he supposed to get?

Christina:

It isn't that I think that Lupin will do better "next time," it's that
I think he already has.  He didn't stand up to Sirius enough when they
were children, he feels badly about that, and shows his remorse by
restraining Sirius a LOT starting at the end of PoA and continuing
through OP.  He feels badly about lying to Dumbledore, so he's 100%
DD's man in HBP and won't even hear of Harry's doubt about DD's trust
in Snape.  He does a behavior, feels bad about it, and then does
something different.


> Pippin:
> If Lupin dunnit it isn't just about the Bang. It goes to the heart 
> of friendship and bravery, and how Harry perceives his own ability 
> to distinguish good from evil and choose the good,  which is what 
> the story is about.

Christina:

I'm dismissive of this as a thematic reason for ESE!Lupin because it's
a theme that we've seen already - Harry is terrible at figuring out
who is good and who is evil, but he's has some lessons.  He thinks
James is super awesome until he sees him in the pensieve, and Harry
must then distinguish in his head between the
mean-but-he-grew-out-of-it evil, and the DE!evil.  And the seventh
book is already steeped in this particular theme with Snape.  I don't
think that ESE!Lupin is a fizzle, but I think that a bangy Lupin
revelation would fizzle everything else, namely whatever JKR has up
her sleeve concerning Snape.  In the same way that I have no problem
with answering cool side questions, but there are more important
questions that cannot be overshadowed.


Christina