Snape's Cruelty has purpose/Pansy Parkinson

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 150638


> Angie again:
>
> Interesting reasoning, but since Snape has never been nice to anyone
> that we've ever known, I believe LV would only expect Snape to be
> nice to Harry & Co if that was necessary to preserve Snape's status
> with DD -- and it isn't.  I believe that DD knowns how nasty Snape
> is, for the most part.  Some of the incidents have occurred in the
> hallways, in front of the pictures, whom I believe keep DD well
> informed.  As for the classroom incidents, as DD told Harry, he
> doesn't need an invisibility cloak to become invisible.
>
> Seems to me to be an issue of the path of least resistance:  it would
> be easier for Snape to be nasty to Harry, with DD's permission, and
> to allow LV to consistently "see" that side of Snape, than to be nice
> to Harry, claiming that's what DD would expect, and have to
> constantly convince LV that he was still on LV's side.  (But as I
> wrote this, it made me wonder why LV thinks DD puts up with Snape's
> nastiness???  Surely, LV knows DD well enough to know that he's aware
> of his teachers' conduct/attitudes toward their students?  Hmm....)

Magpie:
I think we're actually agreeing here.  I wasn't honestly suggesting that 
Voldemort must have ordered Snape to be nice to Harry.  I'm just saying that 
I see no reason to think that when Snape is aggressively mean to Harry or 
other students, when he rants about Harry being just like his father or 
whatever, he's putting on an act to convince Voldemort he's loyal to him.  I 
gave the example of Voldemort ordering him to be nice to him just to point 
out one of my many problems with the scenario.  It just seems silly for 
Voldemort to need to see Snape being mean to Harry or else he'll doubt his 
loyalty given that Snape is a spy.  I mean, how silly would that be:

Voldemort: I saw your memories!  You nodded when you looked at his Potion! 
You gave him an A on his Potions test!  You didn't pick on him in class! 
You're not really on my side!

Snape: My lord, we've been over this.  If I tell Harry I want him to die for 
destroying my beloved master and for having a Mudblood mother who polluted 
the line of our people, even Dumbledore might suspect I'm not really on 
their side...

As to the other question, I think Dumbledore does know about Snape's 
behavior and considers it acceptable for one of his teachers.  He's pretty 
hands-off when it comes to his teachers doing stuff.  He probably would like 
him to forgive and forget and move forward, but doesn't think he can force 
it.

 kchuplis:
>
> I don't see where you read this. Because of Pansy and Draco on the
> train? I don't recall Hermione disparaging Pansy's girl gang anwhere
> and frankly, we don't know enough about Pansy to make that kind of
> statement.

Magpie:
I think Betsy's referring to the fact that girls who are "other" and 
threatening to Harry are often accompanied by giggling gangs.  Pansy in 
earlier books was often shown with a gang.

 horridporrid:
>>
>> [An Aside: Which leaves the "popular" Ginny with no friends her age
>> that the reader can see.  It made me think that JKR must be changing
>> her view of Pansy when we saw Pansy without her girlfriends and
>> hanging with the boys in HBP.  And it's a big part of the reason I
>> think Lily and Snape were friends.  JKR will not leave Lily with
>> girls as her closest friends, IMO, unless she's going to turn Lily
>> bad.]
>>
> kchuplis:
>
> Again, how much do we see Ginny? The stories are from Harry's POV.
> Ginny hangs out with Hermione when she is a bit older. Hermione is
> only a year older, so I'd say that's her age. She knows Luna who
> isn't even in her house. Just because in the later books she is
> dating does that mean she doesn't have girl friends?

Magpie:
She doesn't seem to have girlfriends because we don't see them.  We see her 
friends with Hermione and being nice to Luna.  If she has friends they're 
invisible to her boyfriend, unlike Cho's friends and Pansy's friends. 
Perhaps the idea is that of course Ginny is totally popular with everyone, 
but as a character she only exists insofar as she is attached to Harry. But 
from reading it I get the impression that Ginny has one girlfriend, 
Hermione.  She talks about lots of other people, but they're people she 
doesn't like.

> kchuplis:
>
> Errr....."stealing boys" is not necessarily the sole definition of
> "being mean". Pansy's mouth seems to take care of that if you ask me.
> But that is just my opinion I guess.

Magpie:
I think you're misunderstanding what Betsy means by "mean girl." I don't 
think she's claiming Pansy isn't mean when she insults people etc.  She's 
saying she's not fulfilling the traditional "mean girl" role-and she's not 
(just as Draco never seemed to really be playing the role of the bully, and 
now we know that wasn't his role).  The "mean girl" role is traditionally 
the girl who's more popular than the plucky heroine, and perhaps prettier 
because she's more sophisticated, and she threatens to steal her true love. 
But Pansy is never described as attractive, she and Hermione don't compete 
much.  She makes catty remarks about her in the Witch Weekly but they don't 
directly compete for anything (and Hermione rants about her as well). 
There's only one scene where they compete for beauty and there Hermione is 
Cinderella with the Prince and Pansy is an also-ran.  This isn't an 
inversion of what has gone before--Hermione has always been the one in the 
spotlight with Pansy being resentful.

So yes, Pansy is a mean girl, but her role in the story doesn't seem to be 
"mean girl" to Hermione's heroine.  She's more just an extension of Draco, 
imo.

-m