The Sting: Lucius sent Bella (was:Re: LV: Where'd He Go and How did Frank...)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 151007

Carol earlier:
> > I agree with you that JKR is often (intentionally or
unintentionally) vague in her responses both in interviews and on her
website and that she picked up the phrase "were sent" from the
question <snip>, but I disagree that she's not deliberately using it
to conceal the identity of the sender. As a native speaker of English,
I can confidently state that people don't "send" themselves.
> 
Neri responded:
> Not in the active form, perhaps, but what about the passive form,
when the identity of the sender isn't mentioned? And with some
vagueness regarding the fine line between the strategic and tactical
sending? I'm not a native English speaker, but JKR is, and this seems
to be the way she interpreted "the Lestranges were sent to kill
Neville" in the question. <snip>

Carol again:
Sorry. I'm a bit confused. *What* seems to be the way she interpreted
it? She clearly states, and I quote, "They [the Lestranges and Barty
Jr.] were very definitely sent after Neville's parents." So she
repeats the phrase "were sent," indicating that the questioner is
right that they were sent, but specifies that the reason they were
sent was to do something to Neville's parents, not to kill Neville. If
they had not been sent by someone other than themselves, she would
have corrected that misconception, too, stating that they acted on
their own. (Now, Bella does enjoy torturing people, and she did want
to bring LV back, so maybe she sees the whole sordid episode as her
own idea, but that's not the idea conveyed by the words "were sent."
Apparently someone at the very least gave them information that they
acted on, apparently faulty information. The speculations that the
person was Lucius assume that Bellatrix would not have acted on a
direct order from her brother-in-law, and she certainly doesn't give
him any credit ("We alone looked for him," to quote GoF from memory,
implies that only the four in the courtroom were involved), but
nevertheless, Lucius could have "sent" them by manipulating them into
going there, in which case, they would be fulfilling his wishes under
the delusion that they were acting of their own volition. IOW, he
would have "sent" them to get information out of the Longbottoms which
he knew the Longbottoms didn't have in hopes that their sadistic would
land them in Azkaban and get them out of his white-blond hair. (I'm
not saying thatLucius as sender is canonical, only that he's the
logical candidate. But I am saying that "sent" means "sent," and they
could not have been sent by themselves. English does not allow that
construction, at least not in normal, nonfacetious use. (I can see a
child who knows that she's been naughty saying, "I'm sending myself to
my room, Mommy," but I doubt that JKR has any such unusual use in mind.) 

Carol earlier:
> > As for the mission of Bellatrix and her male cohorts, Bella makes
it clear in both the Pensieve scene and "Spinner's End" that only she
and her faithful followers tried to find and rescue Voldemort.
> 
> Neri:
> Well, this is her official story, and very likely the story that she
> gave the other members of her cadre of maniacs, but she could hardly
> give the *real* reason if it was a Horcrux, could she? Voldemort
would surely impose the highest degree of secrecy on this, whether
Bella herself knew that it was a Horcrux or not.

Carol again:
And yet Bellatrix, for all her many faults, is very direct and
outspoken. When have we ever heard her tell a lie? Geoff recently
quoted her words to Neville about wanting to see him suffer as his
parents suffered. In the Pensieve, she takes pride in the crime she
committed and proudly boasts that the Dark Lord will return. I *do*
think that Voldemort entrusted her with the locket Horcrux, but she
may not have known what it was given that same boastful tendency
combined with Voldemort's secretiveness. But I have yet to recall her
telling a lie. As for her belief that Voldemort will reward her above
all others, that certainly fits better with trying to find him and
restore him than with trying to retrieve a Horcrux that somehow
slipped out of her hands. And in the graveyard, Voldemort says much
the same thing, speaking of the Lestranges as a couple, "They alone
were loyal; they alone tried to find me." (Poor Rabastan. I guess he's
the next-door neighbor. And before anyone takes me too seriously, I
don't really feel sorry for any torturer of the Longbottoms. I'm just
mystified by JKR's treatment of him.)
> 
> > Carol:
> > <snip> *That* was her mission, perhaps self-imposed after Lucius
dropped his hint (in which case "were sent" is indeed used loosely but
nevertheless implies the involvement of someone not present at the
scene), 
> 
> Neri:
> You seem to agree here that it *is* after all possible to use "were
sent" loosely.
> 
Carol:
Loosely, yes. But not ungrammatically. "Sent" requires the involvement
of another person even if that person only gave them a little boost
rather than a direct order.

Here's the entire definition of "send" from Merriam-Webster online.
Admittedly, not all of the definitions are applicable, but none will
admit the use you are trying to impose:

1 : to cause to go: as a : to propel or throw in a particular
direction b : DELIVER <sent a blow to the chin> c : DRIVE <sent the
ball between the goalposts>
2 : to cause to happen <whatever fate may send>
3 : to dispatch by a means of communication
4 a : to direct, order, or request to go b : to permit or enable to
attend a term or session <send a daughter to college> c : to direct by
advice or reference d : to cause or order to depart : DISMISS
5 a : to force to go : drive away b : to cause to assume a specified
state <sent them into a rage>
6 : to cause to issue: as a : to pour out : DISCHARGE <clouds sending
forth rain> b : UTTER <send forth a cry> c : EMIT <sent out waves of
perfume> d : to grow out (parts) in the course of development <a plant
sending forth shoots>
7 : to cause to be carried to a destination; especially : to consign
to death or a place of punishment
8 : to convey or cause to be conveyed or transmitted by an agent <send
a package by mail> <sent out invitations>
9 : to strike or thrust so as to impel violently <sent him sprawling>
10 : DELIGHT, THRILL
intransitive senses
1 a : to dispatch someone to convey a message or do an errand -- often
used with out <send out for pizza> b : to dispatch a request or order
-- often used with away
2 : SCEND
3 : TRANSMIT

> > Carol:

> Neri:
> Unless Frank and Alice did guess at that point why the object they
> confiscated is so important to Bella, and refused to tell her where
> they'd hidden it. They were both aurors, after all. It doesn't seem
> far-fetched that during three years of advanced DADA training aurors
> are also told about Horcruxes, perhaps even some clues for identifying
> one. And if the Longbottoms believed that Voldemort, like some other
> Dark wizards in history, had made only one Horcrux, they would think
> that this Horcrux is the only thing that prevents the final
> vanquishing of Voldemort. There are some things worth dying for.

Carol responds:
I think you're grasping at straws here. Why introduce a completely new
motive for the Crucioing of the Longbottoms when we already have a
canonical one, all based on your view that "were sent" means "sent
themselves"? How could the Longbottoms' knowledge of or guessing the
existence of a Horcrux become when they're both insane, and how would
it further the plot? Wouldn't they have told Dumbledore, in any case?
And if the Lestranges "sent themselves," despite grammar and logic,
why not do so for the reason already specified at least twice in the
books? (Now if you want to argue that Lucius wasn't the sender and
make a case for someone else, say Peter Pettigrew, that I would like
to hear.)
> 
>  
> >  Carol:
> > I agree that Bella is connected with a Horcrux, but it makes much more
> > sense for it to be the one that Regulus stole. 
> 
> Neri:
> I'm not sure what is your theory regarding Bella's involvement with
> the locket Horcrux, but her words in Spinner's End don't seem to fit.

Carol again:
That's easily remedied. Here's a link to the post:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/145831

Skip to the paragraph following the lead-in, "Here's an alternative
scenario for people to shoot down."

Neri:
> IMO Bella's words in Spinner's End sound like she was entrusted with
> safekeeping a Horcrux (most probably not the locket) before GH, yet
> she's not trusted since recently. 
> 
Carol again:
Why not the locket? The connection between Regulus Black and his
cousin Bellatrix, not to mention Kreacher's devotion to her, makes
perfect sense with regard to the locket. (Maybe you should read my
other post to see the details of the theory?)   
> 
Carol, still sure that "were sent" means what it says and that there's
no need to connect the insane Longbottoms with some unidentified
Horcrux when there's already a logical, canonical reason for their the
Lestranges and Barty Jr. Crucioing the Longbottoms