Old, old problem.

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 151016

Alla:
> 
> Oh, of course I agree with you. Blood protection cannot be 
> discounted when discussing Harry's placement. Moreover, what I am 
> arguing is that I accept "blood protection" as the ONLY reason 
> Dumbledore did not remove Harry, that is if we are talking about 
> decent Dumbledore as I perceive him.

Ceridwen:
It seems to me that this level of the stories relies on ancient and 
arcane magic, so the blood protection must be involved.  I think it 
also relies on 'modern technology' in updating that magic, so we have 
Dumbledore's expertise in formulating or modifying supporting 
protections to enhance Lily's sacrificial act of magic.  IF I am 
right, then all of the protections Dumbledore placed are as new or 
untested as Lily's sacrifice, and will probably be difficult to 
remove or switch, even if they found an unknown Evans relation later 
who would fit the criteria (Father an Evans, mother the sister of 
Lily's and Petunia's mother, for instance, same blood).  I think the 
magic may not only be tied to the place where Lily's blood dwells, 
but to Petunia in the sense that she has the same blood lineage as 
Lily.  So removing Harry would be dangerous and foolish, except in 
very extreme circumstances, which the blood protection would guard 
against in any case.

Alla:
> Does it make sense? Of course it is possible that DD knew something 
> from Mrs. Figg reports, BUT I completely disagree that Dumbledore 
> did not interfere with Dursleys abuse because he wanted to train 
> Harry, make him more resilient, etc.
> 
> I think he was afraid to interfere, that's all.

Ceridwen:
I think both could come into play.  But more the latter.  Adversity 
makes us grow stronger, just as exercise, though painful, strengthens 
our muscles ('pain is weakness leaving the body', a Marine slogan I 
saw a few times).  There is pain, and there is pain.  One is weakness 
being replaced by strength, the other is a signal that there is 
something desperately wrong.

I think Mrs Figg was put in Little Whinging expressly as an observer 
for the Order and Dumbledore.  She was one of the old crowd, this 
would make sense.  She was able to fulfill her duties by becoming 
Harry's occasional child minder.  She was both observer and safe 
haven if he wished to take advantage.

And I think you're absolutely right, Dumbledore was afraid to 
interfere.  Not only because of the knife-edge balance of the 
Dursleys keeping Harry as opposed to tossing him out, but because of 
the blood protections on the place, tied to the blood in Petunia's 
veins.  He would be right to be afraid to interfere because it would 
mean Harry's life if he did remove him.

Alla:
> That is just as I said before, IMO if Dumbledore allowed Harry to 
> endure what he got from Dursleys for any reason except wanting to 
> keep him alive with blood protection, to me Dumbledore stops being 
a 
> decent man, who makes mistakes and becomes rather monstrous figure, 
> who thinks that child abuse for ten years is OK as long as it is 
for 
> training purposes.

Ceridwen:
I can't see the futuristic 'training the children like a bunch of 
Spartans' mentality from some movies and books we have as playing 
into the story at all.  The easiest, as well as the most efficient, 
reason for keeping Harry at the Dursleys is the blood link between 
Lily and Petunia, and Lily's sacrifice.  Anything Dumbledore said, to 
himself or to Harry or anyone, in my opinion, is taking the 'lemons' 
life gave him and Harry, and making 'lemonade' - rationalizing.  It 
had to be so, that is the harsh reality.  And it's very tempting to 
give it a reason beyond saying that was the best that could have been 
done.

Alla:
> It is just what you said in your other post, if 
> DD consciously placed Harry to endure Dursleys upbringing to be 
more 
> resilient, etc, DD runs awfully big risk that Harry would find out 
> about that and you know, join the other side.

Ceridwen:
Of course I would agree with you agreeing with me!  ;)  But 
Dumbledore also runs the risk of Harry being injured, physically not 
so much due to the protections (see Carol's examples), but mentally 
and emotionally, to the point that he would not be able to fight LV.

Alla:
> I think Dumbledore was faced with horrific choice. Did he do the 
> best he could? As some people know, I was very angry with 
Dumbledore 
> speech at the end of OOP and if he would continued this way in HBP, 
> I may have hated him a great deal, but luckily JKR rehabilitated 
him 
> VERY well in HBP in my eyes. :)

Ceridwen:
Oh, yes, he had a very horrible choice, based on a horrible event, 
the death of Harry's parents.  And he absolutely did the best he 
could.  He may even have created new charms/spells, or modified 
existing ones, that would have taken him nearly a day to devise, just 
to see to Harry's safety.  I mentioned above that the justification 
at the end of OotP was probably DD rationalizing to himself the 
treatment Harry endured.  Yes, in the end it did make Harry stronger, 
but that was never a guarantee.  A manipulative Dumbledore would have 
placed Harry with people he trusted and ordered up a regimine that 
would have done the same thing but with much more of his own 
involvement, just to make sure that he got the results he wanted.  
Sort of like basic training, where the curriculum is set, instead of 
random as it was at the Dursleys'.

Alla:
> I don't believe that DD is a monster, that is why I refuse to 
> believe that he would allow a young child to stay with Dursleys, 
> unless he truly had no other way to keep the child alive.

Ceridwen:
No, of course not.  That is not the character JKR wrote.  We do know 
that his creatrix sees him as Good, therefore, that is how she writes 
him.  If his only goal, or even his regrettable priority, was to 
create the perfect Killing Machine instead of a boy, he would have 
done things much differently.  Harry would probably have had more 
exposure to magic from infancy, which would have left the Dursleys 
out as guardians; he would have been in an environment directly 
controlled by DD's edicts.  Protecting him was top priority, and once 
what I assume to be complicated spells were placed, the most sensible 
thing to do would be to leave him there, set observers in place, and 
hope that he had done everything in his power to ensure Harry's 
*survival*.

Ceridwen.