The Sting: Lucius sent Bella (was:Re: LV: Where'd He Go and How did Frank...)

[Neri]

No: HPFGUIDX 151030

> Neri responded:
> > Not in the active form, perhaps, but what about the passive form,
> when the identity of the sender isn't mentioned? And with some
> vagueness regarding the fine line between the strategic and tactical
> sending? I'm not a native English speaker, but JKR is, and this seems
> to be the way she interpreted "the Lestranges were sent to kill
> Neville" in the question. <snip>
> 
> Carol again:
> Sorry. I'm a bit confused. *What* seems to be the way she interpreted
> it? 

Neri:
I have explained what is the way she seems to interpret the question
in my very next paragraph, which you snipped. I'm starting to repeat
myself, but I guess I'll just have to paste it here again:

Note that JKR's explanation as to why the Lestranges couldn't have
been sent to kill Neville is that "they were not in on the prophecy".
Strictly this isn't an explanation at all, because the Lestranges
could have easily been sent to kill Neville without knowing a thing
about the prophecy. Voldy could have simply issued a command: "if
something happens to me, you should get rid of the Longbottoms' baby"
without giving any reason, and then the Lestranges would have been
properly "sent". Yet this isn't the scenario that JKR seems to be
addressing in her answer. From the words "the Lestranges weren't in on
the secret" she appears to be addressing a hypothetical scenario in
which Voldemort told the Lestranges about the prophecy, yet didn't
strictly send them to do anything. Only after he disappeared they used
their knowledge and deduced that he'd want them to get rid of the
second boy implicated by the prophecy. They believed that the Dark
Lord would have sent them to do that if only he could contact them.
This is the scenario that JKR seems to think the question had meant,
and she addresses it in her answer, and yet the words "the Lestranges
were sent" appear both in the question and in her answer. So is JKR's
English as bad as mine?


> Carol:
> " So she
> repeats the phrase "were sent," indicating that the questioner is
> right that they were sent, but specifies that the reason they were
> sent was to do something to Neville's parents, not to kill Neville. If
> they had not been sent by someone other than themselves, she would
> have corrected that misconception, too, stating that they acted on
> their own.

Neri:
Unless she didn't even think about the issue of who did the sending.
Because maybe her mind was totally occupied with the *why* rather than
the *who*. So she just repeated the word "sent" in the question
without thinking about it. 

I assure you that there is no need to quote the dictionary to me. I
really know what the word "send" means. But I keep coming back to the
*context* while you continue to focus on the single word. If you look
at JKR's whole answer, especially with our post-HBP knowledge of Snape
knowing about the prophecy, then the context appears to be refuting
the prophecy as the Lestranges' motive, while the word "sent" is used
in a loose way. 

> Pippin:
> Um, no. "The Lestranges were sent to kill Neville"  is coy as to the
> identity of the sender but definitely indicates there was some 
> agency involved. By repeating the verb, JKR
> confirms that part of the rumour was correct. 
> 
> 
>   JKR seems to be saying that the Lestranges would have certainly 
> gone after Neville if they had known about the prophecy, but they 
> didn't. She leaves open the question of whether the mysterious sender 
> knew of the prophecy or not.

Neri:
This is a rather complex message for just two sentences, and it
doesn't go very well with her use of words. You posit that her first
sentence was about reaffirming the "were sent" part while the second
is adding a hypothetical as to what the Lestranges would have done had
they known about the prophecy. But her words "I can't say too much
about this because
, but 
" imply that this second sentence is *about*
her first sentence, not a separate hypothetical. This second sentence
reveals that in her first sentence too, her mind was on the "after
Neville's parents" and "the prophecy" rather than on the "were sent" part.

Here, I'll paste the whole question and answer again while stressing
the parts I think JKR's mind was on:

*************************************************
Rumour:
The Lestranges were sent AFTER NEVILLE to kill him.

Answer:
No, they weren't, they were very definitely sent AFTER NEVILLE'S
PARENTS. I can't say too much ABOUT THIS because it touches too
closely on THE PROPHECY and how many people KNEW about it, but the
Lestranges were NOT in on the secret.
*************************************************

When you read it like this the whole "sent" issue kind of fades into
the background, and JKR is totally occupied with squashing the
prophecy as the Lestranges' motive (keeping with the whole point of
the Rumors section, which is to squash erroneous theories). It's only
when you take the first sentence of her answer out of context that it
might sound like: 

No, they weren't, they were VERY DEFINITELY SENT after Neville's parents.

But like I said, it's depends on whether you generally tend to think
JKR weights every word in her website. I know you think she not merely
weights every word, and also gives it double and hidden meanings.
Personally I think she frequently has one thing on her mind when
answering and completely misses other issues and implications that the
fans are bothered with. Like in her answer on the last poll question
"what happens to a secret when the SK dies" she only talked about
Peter's case, and apparently completely missed that the fans were
asking this in regard to Dumbledore and the 12GP secret.

I'm not saying the Lestranges *weren't* strictly sent by someone other
than themselves or Voldemort, but personally I won't be surprised or
disappointed with JKR's integrity if it turns out they weren't. It's a
rather vague canon detail and I would hesitate to build a whole theory
on it.

> 
> Carol again:
> <snip> And in the graveyard, Voldemort says much
> the same thing, speaking of the Lestranges as a couple, "They alone
> were loyal; they alone tried to find me." 

Neri:
To my knowledge, the above words aren't canon. As I wrote in my
previous post, Voldemort does not say in the graveyard, nor in any
other place I know of, that the Lestranges tried to find him. His
exact words in the graveyard (GoF, Ch. 33, p. 650 Scholastic) are:
"they were faithful. They went to Azkaban rather than renounce me
".
BTW, in Spinner's End too Bella doesn't say that she tried to find
Voldemort. Her words there (HBP, Ch. 2, p. 27 Scholastic) are: "He'd
have me! I, who spent many years in Azkaban for him". So AFAIK the
only place where Bellatrix proclaims that she and her friends tried to
find Voldemort is once in the Pensieve trial, and even there she
doesn't actually announce that they tried to do that by attacking the
Longbottoms. The only one who says *that* is Crouch Sr. (GoF, Ch. 30,
p. 595): "the four of you stand accused of capturing an Auror – Frank
Longbottom – and subjecting him to the Cruciatus Curse, believing him
to have knowledge of the present whereabouts of your exiled master". 
And how could Crouch know what they believed? He surely didn't have
the corroboration of Frank and Alice on that. This could easily be
their cover story for the trial. And you know, as a cover story it
wouldn't even be a lie, strictly speaking: They didn't actually
torture Frank for the whereabouts of the Voldy soul part #7, but for
the whereabouts of the Voldy soul part #4. It's exactly the kind of
sneaky non-lies that JKR just loves to put in the words of her villains.

 
> > Neri:
> > You seem to agree here that it *is* after all possible to use "were
> sent" loosely.
> > 
> Carol:
> Loosely, yes. But not ungrammatically. "Sent" requires the involvement
> of another person even if that person only gave them a little boost
> rather than a direct order.
> 

Neri:
I agree, but I think that Voldemort stressing the importance of
keeping his Horcrux safe would be much more than a little boost for a
fanatic DE like Bella, even if he's not there anymore to issue the
direct order  "get it back from the Longbottoms now".   

As I mention above, JKR too was referring to a rumor in which
*Voldemort* was the other person involved, although he wasn't there
anymore and couldn't issue a direct order. So it seems she either used
the word "sent" in this loose sense, or she simply didn't think about
the word and in what sense she was using it.

> 
> Carol responds:
> I think you're grasping at straws here. Why introduce a completely new
> motive for the Crucioing of the Longbottoms when we already have a
> canonical one, all based on your view that "were sent" means "sent
> themselves"?

Neri:
Because my "new" motive, namely a Horcrux hunt, is apparently what
Book 7 is going to be about, while the motive of finding Vapor!mort
would be kind of passé in Book 7. Now, if the reason for the attack on
the Longbottoms won't play at all in Book 7, which as I wrote is quite
possible, then we can leave it at that. The Lestranges just thought,
for this or that reason, that the Longbottoms knew where Vapor!mort
is, and the exact story about it isn't important for the plot. But if
JKR had plotted the whole Longbottoms affair from the beginning so
that it will be resolved with a satisfying BANG in Book 7, then it
should be about something that matters *a lot* in Book 7.

It's all about plot considerations, and especially at this late hour
they are as important as canon support. As any LOLLIPOPS supporter
would be happy to tell you <g>.

> Carol:
> How could the Longbottoms' knowledge of or guessing the
> existence of a Horcrux become when they're both insane, and how would
> it further the plot?

Neri:
Gee, there are so many great possibilities here. Say, the Horcrux is
somewhere in plain sight in the Longbottoms' house. Or Neville
inherited it from his parents and always had it in his possession. Or
when he's 17 he'll inherit it. Or Frank and Alice will somehow manage
to convey to him where it's hidden. And Bella might come after it
again, probably with several DEs in tow. And just think what the shock
of seeing her might do to Frank and Alice. We may have the attack on
the Longbottoms all over again, only this time playing live, and with
Neville a wizard of age. Now *this* would be what I call BANGy.


> Carol:
> Wouldn't they have told Dumbledore, in any case?

Neri:
Not if they only realized that it was a Horcrux when the Lestranges
already got them. Plot considerations <g>.


> Pippin:
> I agree that Frank and Alice should not have had to undergo their
> horrible fate just to show us that a minor character like Lucius is
> a rotter. We already knew that from his dropping the diary on Ginny.
> It really should be someone they thought they could trust,
> don't you think? And if it's someone that Neville trusts, so much
> the better. Malfoys don't qualify.
>

Neri:
And Neville trusts ESE!Lupin? I'd be more inclined to give this a
thought if we had some further interaction between Neville and Lupin
since PoA. Something to make a revelation of ESE!Lupin behind the
attack on Neville's parents more personal. It would have been very
easy for JKR to write such interaction had she wanted to. Say, during
the DoM battle scene in OotP, or during the battle in HBP, or in the
infirmary after the battle, or wherever. But the fact is, we haven't
had any significant interaction between Neville and Lupin for the
three last books. No buildup at all. No further tutoring, no further
jokes on Snape's expense, no displays of trust, no comradeship, no
hero-worship. Nothing. 

But we did get Bella out of Azkaban, we did get her torturing Neville,
we did get to see Neville in the hospital with his poor mother, and we
did see him becoming something of a fighter, all suggesting buildup
towards a battle between Bella and Neville in Book 7. And after HBP we
also get these darned horthingies all over the place. Blame it on JKR,
but as we are approaching the last installation of the series, it
looks like big ESEs are Out and Horcruxes are In.

> > Neri:
> > I'm not sure what is your theory regarding Bella's involvement with
> > the locket Horcrux, but her words in Spinner's End don't seem to fit.
> 
> Carol again:
> That's easily remedied. Here's a link to the post:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/145831
> 
> Skip to the paragraph following the lead-in, "Here's an alternative
> scenario for people to shoot down."
> 

Neri:
In your theory above, Bella plays a small part by putting the locket
in the cave, and maybe killing Regulus later. This is quite possible,
of course, but as I wrote, it would make Bella's slip of tongue in
Spinner's End useless as a clue (or even just as a good red herring)
to the location of a Horcrux. We already know that RAB stole the
locket, and it's probably the locket last seen in 12GP by OotP. So
even if it was Bella who put it in the cave in the first place, this
is pretty much immaterial now. For Bella's slip of tongue to be a real
clue it should be relevant for the current location of the Horcrux
she's talking about. 

And remember, we need to locate at least *three* Horcruxes in Book 7
(assuming Dumbledore is right about Nagini being the forth). The
locket Horcrux already takes center stage with connections to (most
probably) Regulus, Kreacher, Sirius and Mundungus. But what about the
other two? Their stories need to be as dramatic as the locket's, or it
would look too easy. 

Neri