[HPforGrownups] When did the Lestranges attack the Longbottoms?

Tue Apr 18 21:34:52 UTC 2006

No: HPFGUIDX 151093

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, puduhepa98 at ... wrote:
>
> 
> Draeconin:
> > I thought the Longbottoms were tortured into  catatonia by
Voldemort himself?
> 
Beatrice:
> >This  occurs 1 year after Harry goes to the Dursleys.  When Harry
and Neville are just over 2 years old.
>  
> Nikkalmati:
> Sorry, I missed the source for this date.  How do we know the
torture occurred at this time?  If it is true, I have to give up my
theory that the  DEs went immediately to the Longbottoms when LV
disappeared because they knew  his itinerary to be 1. Potters 2.
Longbottoms. When he disappeared, they went at once to his next stop.

Carol responds:
The exact date is unclear. All we know forcertain is that it occurred
at some point after Godric's Hollow, when the WW thought it was safe,
and that Sirius Black saw his cousin and her crew enter Azkaban some
time after he himself was imprisoned.

My guess, given the statement that the WW thought it was safe, is that
it occurred many months after Godric's Hollow, after the arrests of a
number of Death Eaters  made the WWfeel much more secure than the mere
vaporization of Voldemort. (People coming out from under Imperius
Curses, real or feigned, was another sign that Voldie was really
gone.) Life, I'm guessing, took a while to return to normal.

Another, more definitive clue is the description of Barty Crouch Sr.
in each of the Pensieve memories in GoF. He grows progressively grayer
and more stressed with each memory (they're presented in chronological
order). In the first memory, the Karkaroff hearing, which occurs after
some of the DEs have already been killed or arrested, Crouch's hair is
dark, his face much less lined than in the other memories, and he
looks "trim and fit" (GoF Am. ed. 587). And yet this scene clearly
occurs some time after Godric's Hollow; Moody says that he was looking
for Karkaroff for six months; Wilkes and Rosier have already been
killed by Aurors; Mulciber, Dolohov, Travers, and Mulciber are in
Azkaban; Snape has been cleared by the court.

The Bagman trial apparently comes next in the chronological sequence.
Crouch's son has not yet been arrested, yet Crouch Sr. looks "more
tired and somehow fiercer, gaunter" (591). Clearly some time has
passed since the Karkaroff hearing, but it's impossible to know how
much: enough, perhaps a month or two, to show that he's under more
stress than before. Perhaps he's starting to have serious doubts about
his son. In the final scene, the sentencing of the Lestranges and
Barty Jr., the strain has caught up with Crouch. He looks "gaunter and
greyer than ever before," and a nerve is twitching in his temple (594).

Such marked changes in his appearance, striking enough to be noticed
by Harry, indicate to me that the Lestrange's trial (if it can be
called that) occurs at least several months after the Karkaroff
hearing, which seems to occur at least six months after GH (assuming
that Moody began searching for Karkaroff after Voldemort's fall). That
would make Harry and Neville 21 months old at the time of the
Karkaroff hearing and more than a few months older when the Lestranges
and Barty Jr. are tried. I would say that Beatrice's guess that the
Longbottoms were Crucio'd when both boys were two years old as close
to the mark as we can get, assuming that the trial took place soon
after the actual torture and not nine or ten months later.

So I don't think that Bellatrix et al. went immediately to the
Longbottoms' after Voldie was vaporized or that they knew Voldie's
itinerary. If you've been reading the Lucius Sting/"were sent" thread,
you know that they definitely didn't know about the Prophecy, so
unless someone told them that the Longbottoms were most likely the
next victims on the agenda, they probably didn't know that, either.

So putting everything together, I'd say that they "were sent" to the
Longbottoms by person or persons unknown (Lucius?) at least eight to
ten months after Godric's Hollow, maybe more, depending on how long it
took Mr. Crouch's hair to turn from dark (Karkaroff hearing) to grey
(Lestrange trial). It's at least clear that the attack didn't occur
immediately after Godric's Hollow.

One more thing that has nothing to do with the date of the trialbut
doesrelate to the Pensieve scenes. One poster (sorry, don't remember
who) suggested that Rabastan Lestrange (or whichever brother was
staring blankly at Mr. Crouch) had been Imperio'd. I don't think so,
given his behavior at the MoM, which is typical DE. (Rabastan was
Crabbe's partner and was with him till Crabbe got attacked by a time
turner, after which he seems to have joined with Rodolphus and Bella.)
So my guess is that the blank stare indicates either Occlumency (note
that Snape's eyes look like tunnels the first time Harry stares into
them) or the influence of the Dementors, which may already draining
his presumably small store of happiness.

Carol, oddly intrigued by Rabastan but without the slightest hope for
his redemption

Beatrice:
> >This  occurs 1 year after Harry goes to the Dursleys.  When Harry
and Neville are just over 2 years old.
>  
> Nikkalmati:
> Sorry, I missed the source for this date.  How do we know the
torture occurred at this time?  If it is true, I have to give up my
theory that the  DEs went immediately to the Longbottoms when LV
disappeared because they knew  his itinerary to be 1. Potters 2.
Longbottoms. When he disappeared, they went at once to his next stop.

>Carol responds:
>The exact date is unclear. All we know forcertain is that it occurred
>at some point after Godric's Hollow, when the WW thought it was safe,
>and that Sirius Black saw his cousin and her crew enter Azkaban some
>time after he himself was imprisoned.

>>My guess, given the statement that the WW thought it was safe, is that
it occurred many months after Godric's Hollow, after the arrests of a
number of Death Eaters  made the WWfeel much more secure than the mere
vaporization of Voldemort. <snip>
Another, more definitive clue is the description of Barty Crouch Sr.
in each of the Pensieve memories in GoF. He grows progressively grayer
and more stressed with each memory (they're presented in chronological
order). In the first memory, the Karkaroff hearing, which occurs after
some of the DEs have already been killed or arrested <snip>
The Bagman trial apparently comes next in the chronological sequence.
Crouch's son has not yet been arrested, <snip> In the final scene, the sentencing of the Lestranges and
Barty Jr., the strain has caught up with Crouch. He looks "gaunter and
greyer than ever before," and a nerve is twitching in his temple (594).

>>Such marked changes in his appearance, striking enough to be noticed
by Harry, indicate to me that the Lestrange's trial (if it can be
called that) occurs at least several months after the Karkaroff
hearing, which seems to occur at least six months after GH (assuming
that Moody began searching for Karkaroff after Voldemort's fall). That
would make Harry and Neville 21 months old at the time of the
Karkaroff hearing and more than a few months older when the Lestranges
and Barty Jr. are tried. I would say that Beatrice's guess that the
Longbottoms were Crucio'd when both boys were two years old as close
to the mark as we can get, assuming that the trial took place soon
after the actual torture and not nine or ten months later.<snip>
Nikkalmati:  
Good observations and I can't really quarrel with them, but I think my view is still possible.  
I take "when the wizarding world thought it was safe" to be part of the preceeding clause, not a 
modifying clause i.e. immediately after LV disappeared.  The rejoycing in PS/SS started immediately
and I think most people in WW were not worried after LV was gone.  A mistake of course. Even if the
trials dragged on for a long time, that does not mean Bella and company were not 
on the loose at this time, being hunted down over that year, or even that they were 
rotting in some cell having already been arrested a year before at the Longbottoms.  I do
agree that your scenerio is just as likely to be correct based on what we know.
Nikkalmati    

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