[HPforGrownups] Dumbledore on the Dursleys in OotP (was:Re: Old, old problem.)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 151119


> Betsy Hp:
>
> I think there a couple of different reasons why this speech didn't
> bother me.  One is that of *course* Dumbledore was a bit crazy in
> this scene.  He'd just had his grand plan blow up in his face.  And
> Sirius was dead because of it.  He's exhausted and grieving and
> trying very hard to give Harry as much comfort as he can while at
> the same time keep Harry from descending into toxic rage. (Hence his
> admittedly bizarre segue into House elf rights when Kreacher is
> brought up.)

Magpie:
I think to me he sounds all too in control--he manages to come out 
sympathetic and smelling like a rose while other peoples' problems are flaws 
or not that important.

Betsy:
> And I think that first reason hinges on my second: Dumbledore just
> isn't all that, IMO.  Both Magpie and Alla mention the fairytale
> motif: Harry as Cinderella; Dumbledore as fairy god-mother or
> Merlin.  But neither of them are really in that role.  Harry's life
> at the Dursleys, while not good, doesn't sink to the level of
> fairytake abuse.  And Dumbledore, while a relatively wise character,
> doesn't rise to the level of a fairytale wiseman.

Magpie:
But the early books do both of this.  Harry's life does indeed reach fairy 
tale abuse level.  He sleeps in a cupboard as Cinderella sits in the ashes. 
He has to do all the housework.  He's constantly berated, told he's a 
burden.  He's isolated, with no friends.  Sometimes he's not fed.  He wears 
awful clothes.  He's beaten by his cousin.  Cinderella isn't physically 
abused, she's treated like dirt, ordered around and not allowed to go to the 
ball with the other girls.

Dumbledore, imo, starts out the series very much in the wise man mode.  I 
was going to quote just the bit you did about Dumbledore letting Harry face 
Voldemort on his own.

> For me, the moment of decision on Dumbledore's character came at the
> end of PS/SS, when Harry is discussing going after the Stone with
> Ron and Hermione:
>
> "D'you think he meant you to do it?" said Ron.  "Sending you your
> father's cloak and everything?"
> "*Well*" Hermione exploded, "if he did -- I mean to say -- that's
> terrible -- you could have been killed."
> "No it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully.  "He's a funny man,
> Dumbledore.  I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. [...]
> It's almost like he thought I had a right to face Voldemort if I
> could...." (SS scholastic paperback p.302)
>
> There are two roads offered to the reader here.  You can take
> Harry's path and consider Dumbledore a man who willingly put three
> children's lives at risk merely to ascertain Harry's character, to
> give Harry a "chance".  (A chance that nearly ended with both Ron
> and Harry dead.)  Or you can take Hermione's path and consider
> Dumbledore a man who would *never* risk a child's life in such a
> reckless way.

Magpie:
But I'd say obviously we're supposed to take Harry's line of reasoning here 
and get that Dumbledore knew what was going on and let Harry have his 
chance, and this is a good thing, not a terrible thing as Hermione thinks. 
And it works because in PS, imo, Dumbledore is still in wise man mode.  He 
*isn't* risking a child's life recklessly because Harry is the hero of a 
young adventure story and we can trust Dumbledore's watching over the whole 
thing.  That's why Harry's thoughtful while Hermione is exploding and cut 
off.  Plus, given what we later know about Dumbledore, it's not like Harry's 
explanation of how he's "funny" isn't consistent.  Dumbledore *does* put 
people at risk to give chances to face one's own demons.  (Or in OotP to 
keep from telling Harry something that might make him look bad.)

It's later in the series, imo, that Dumbledore and the Dursleys start to 
change a bit.  Dumbledore starts making mistakes, isn't fully in control. 
The Dursleys become more like a dysfunctional family and less Dahl-esque. 
We know by now that Dumbledore can make mistakes, but I still don't feel 
there's any danger that, for instance, Dumbledore's allowing Harry the 
chance to face Voldemort on his own would wind up going pear-shaped the way 
his allowing Draco to work himself out in HBP did.  PS/SS was a different 
style.  It also might have been the only book in the series.  If it had been 
I think it would generally be seen as Cinderella/wise man-ish.  It's Harry's 
words that, imo, would be taken as a clue to us readers what Dumbledore was 
about.

Betsy:
> So, rather than seeing a Puppetmaster in the OotP speech, I see a
> man admitting that his power is not all that large.

Magpie:
Actually, I wasn't talking about him being a Puppetmaster when I said I 
hated his speech in OotP.  I didn't see him admitting his power was not that 
large so much as giving an incredibly self-serving reading of everything 
that had gone before in the book.

-m