The Dementor Solution

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 151339

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> >
> > On the other hand, ..., if the soul lives on in a kind of 
> > Dementor Purgatory, trapped inside the Dementor while the 
> > Dementor feeds on the emotions of the soul. That works 
> > better, because Voldemorts eternal soul would be trapped 
> > inside the Dementor. ...
> > 
> >(Snip)
> > This would be a way for Harry to destroy Voldemort without 
> > having to become a killer himself. Further, ..., Voldemort
> > gets his wish, he will now live earth-bound forever, but 
> > sadly he will do so not with freewill and free volition, ...
> > 
> (Snipped rest of very thought provoking post)
> 
> Tonks:
> Before we can ponder how LV will be destroyed I think that we must 
> first determine his essence. Is he a mortal who has prolonged his 
> earthly existence, but still has an eternal soul? 


bboyminn:

I think first we must evaluate the Dementors as potential weapons in
the theoretical destruction of Voldemort. If we don't understand their
nature and what happens to the souls they ingest, then we can't begin
to understand their effectiveness against Voldemort. But I agree, what
generally happens to souls ingested by Dementor, doesn't necessarily
apply to Voldemort, but it's a starting point.

For the record, I think Voldemort now has a mortal body, and an
immortal soul, just like any other, that is also protected in a way
that keeps his soul earth-bound in the event of his physical death.
Other than the efforts to keep his soul earth-bound, I don't see
Voldemort as being any different than any other person on earth. He
can die; he can be killed, just not as easily as other mortals. 

In a sense, it is not death that Voldemort fears, it is what comes
after death. In Dumbledore's words, Voldemort fears 'the next great
adventure'. He is so attached to his /known/ earthly life that he can
bear the thought of the next great /unknown/ adventure. He does not
control that next adventure, and he fears what he can not control;
typical tyrannt and evil overlord. 

I believe that Voldemort's soul is a soul like any other with the
exception that he keeps his in several pieces in several places. I
don't think that prevents the Dementors from removing his soul from
his current mortal body. Though exactly what happens next is a little
unclear.

If the core soul /piece/ is destroyed by the Dementor, then my
personal opinion is that that will happen independant of the remote
soul piece. In a sense, that make the remote piece orphaned spiritual
essense. If that were to happen, then I assume that the orphaned
spiritual essense, lacking a core soul, would simply move on to the
spiritual realm.

If the core soul piece continues to exist, then I personally believe
it is trapped in the Dementor; permanently trapped. 

Now that last scenario raises further questions about Dementors; do
they live, do they die? Enquiring minds want to know. JKR in a sense
implied that Dementors live, but that they aren't necessarily alive. 
That is, in the truest sense they are not born of parents, they grow
like mold in the decay, destruction, and desperation of life. They, I
suspect, are being of form and essense, but without souls. It is this
lacking of an independant soul that makes me say that they live, but
are not alive. 

Since they are form and essense, since they are not truly born, they
can not die but I conceive that they can be destroyed, though I don't
see it as an easy task. Note Lupins words to Harry, that since a
Dementor is not truly alive, it can't be killed.

If the Dementor who ate Voldemort's now destroyed soul were destroyed,
I don't think it would matter, Voldemort would be completely gone. On
the other hand, if the Dementor who ate Voldemort still remaining
trapped core soul were destroyed, then it gets a bit sticky. My
instinct tells me, if the Dementor is destroyed then Voldemort's soul
is also destroyed, but I admit that is likely a great deal of wishful
thinking. Still, the actual destruction of a Dementor seems EXTREMELY
difficult. It would be very rare and very unlikely circumstances that
would allow Voldemort to escape his Dementor Prison.

Even if Voldemort did escape upon the destruction of the Dementor,
where would he go, what would he do? I suspect a great deal of time
would have passed, all his followers would be dead. He would be a
footnote in history. I don't think in his bodiless form he would have
much power to compell people to do his bidding. He would simply be a
ghostly specter who roamed the dark forests. A fairytale to scare
little children.

> Tonks:
>
> Is LV the only evil?  Is he evil or Evil?  If he is the 
> personification of Ultimate Evil, does he have an end? Can Evil 
> have an end? I think we must first determine this before we can 
> discuss the possibility of the dementor's kiss.
> 

bboyminn:

Voldemort is one manifestation of evil. While Voldemort exist, evil is
occurring in other parts of the world that have nothing to do with
him, so he is not the /only evil/, simply one manifestion of the
nature of evil.

Is he evil or Evil? In some sense I think he is both. He is an evil
man, but he also is a reflection of the greater evil the exists on
earth. He is that classic 'evil overlord'. He has classic /tyrannt/
philosophy, he spouts classic doctrine that plays on people desired
beliefs, he raise his follower up by pushing other people down, that
is he doesn't attempt to prove his own superiority but the inferiority
of others, he is in every way, every tyrannt, oppressor, and dictator
who ever lived. He is Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Sadam Hussin, and Hitler who
are all in turn a reflection of the evil that is spawned by those who
place power and wealth above all things.

In this sense, Voldemort is a reflection of the eternal evil that
plagues the earth, but wouldn't say he IS that evil, only that he is a
reflection of that evil. Nor would I say that Harry IS the eternal
good on earth, he is merely a reflection of the good. 


> Tonks:
> 
> I don't think it is as easy as saying that a Dementor can just suck 
> LV's soul until we know the essence of both. It would seem to me 
> that LV is more powerful that even a group of Dementor's and that 
> perhaps Dementor's have their existance because of his. But I have 
> not thought this through completely.
> 
> Any ideas folks?
> 
> Tonks_op

bboyminn: 

Interesting point, and this whole idea is admittedly complicated.
Though I do agree, that we must no the nature of both Voldemort and
the Dementors to determine if the Dementors are a potential weapon
against Voldemort. 

We can assume that the Dementors follow Voldemort because he will let
them run free through society feeding off of emotions on the condition
that they leave Voldemort and his DE's alone. Whereas, the Ministry
felt compelled to keep the Dementors contained at Azkaban. Could
perhaps the obviously cruel and unusual punishment of sending prisoner
to the Dementors for minor crimes be part of the Ministry's effort to
keep the Dementors under control? In a sense, sacrificing their own
citizens to keep the Dementors from preying on the world at large? 

The next question was raise by another responder in this thread. Would
Voldemort have an appealing soul? Would it be a soul that would draw
Dementors to it?

Again, this comes down to the confusing nature of Dementors. Do
Dementors strip away good feelings so they can feed on the perpetually
remaining bad feelings, or is it actually the good feelings they feed
on, or is it both? 

Think carefully about what you read in the books before you attempt to
answer that. The books seem to imply that they feed on good feelings,
but there is plenty of evidence to say it is the bad feelings that
sustain them. Or perhaps, they strip of the good feeling to keep their
victims helpless, thereby allowing them to sustain themselves of the
resulting bad feelings. 

I think we can all agree that the Dementor, while their basic nature
is clear, the details of who and what they are, their nature and how
they function, is very unclear. I think it is in that unclear aspect
of their nature that we will be able to determine their potential as a
weapon in the final book.

Not sure what it adds up to other than a whole lot of speculation, but
there it is.

Steve/bboyminn