Dumbledore on the Dursleys in OotP (LONG)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 151357

> Pippin:
<SNIP>
> All Harry  wanted to do was rage at Dumbledore, and Dumbledore
> accepted this and gave him the opportunity. He would have let him 
> rage at Sirius (and may have expected that Harry would want to,)
> because Sirius was beyond being hurt.
> 
> But he was not going to let Harry judge Hermione or Petunia or 
> Kreacher, because Harry was not in a state to do it fairly. 

Alla:

Yes, we are indeed differ fundamentally. But let me ask you one more 
question. Even though I don't think that Dumbledore had any right to 
decide whether Harry's grievances are fair or not, could you point 
me to any UNFAIR accusations Harry threw at Petunia or Kreacher? Had 
Kreacher NOT betrayed Sirius? Had Petunia not never loved him?

And Harry's mentioning of Hermione, well I think he is correct, 
because I think that no matter how nicely they would have treated 
Kreacher, he would have done the same thing. As an example we see 
Hermione herself trying to treat Kreacher nicely and what does he 
say in response? As far as I can remember he calls her mudblood, no?

 
> Pippin:
<SNIP>
>And whatever Kreacher's faults, it must be admitted
> that Sirius did nothing to make Kreacher's lot easier--
> <snip>
> Sirius did not hate Kreacher. He regarded him as a servant 
> unworthy of much interest or notice. Indifference and neglect often
> do more damage than outright dislike...The fountain we destroyed
> tonight told a lie. We wizards have mistreated and abused our
> fellows for too long, and we are now reaping our reward.
> 
> Harry: SO SIRIUS DESERVED WHAT HE GOT, DID HE?
> 
> DD: I did not say that, nor will you ever hear me say it. Sirius 
was 
> not a cruel man, he was kind to house-elves in general. He had
> no love for Kreacher, because Kreacher was a living reminder of 
the 
> home Sirius had hated.
> 
> --
> Now, given that Dumbledore had the right to speak to Harry as an
> adult and a fellow warrior, that he was not saying anything about
> Sirius that he wouldn't have said to Sirius's face, and that he no
> longer had the right to shield Harry from unpleasant truths, was
> there anything in there that Dumbledore did not have both the
> right and the duty to say?


Alla:

Okay, Pippin I thank for your answer and YES I think there is 
NOTHING in the quote you brought that Dumbledore had EITHER right or 
duty to say.

You see this quote is a perfect example of why it annoys me so much. 
Dumbledore LECTURES Harry, he lectures Harry even though Sirius just 
died, I don't even know that an hour passed after he died. I find it 
despicable and the only excuse I can find is that Dumbledore was not 
quite aware of what he was doing , otherwise I cannot respect him 
anymore, so I guess I will be holding to that excuse. :)

Yes, Dumbledore tells Harry that he did not say that Sirius deserved 
to die, but just in the previous paragraph he implies precisely 
that, IMO. That Sirius did not make Kreacher's life easier and that 
is why Kreacher did what he did.

Kreacher loved Sirius' parents, Sirius apparently left his house 
with no warm feelings for his parents. Would Kreacher had ANY love 
for a man who did not love his former masters, even if this man 
would have treated him nicely? I don't think so. But this is of 
course just my opinion.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Did Dumbledore have the right to teach Harry to discount 
Kreacher's 
> feelings by behaving as if  they weren't as important to him as 
Harry's
> own? To pretend that the fountain told the truth and Sirius was 
> indeed one of a  superior and benevolent race of beings who 
deserved 
> only to be adored?

Alla:

Sigh, I don't think Dumbledore had any right to engage in teachings 
the moment  after Sirius died. I just don't. And again, I understand 
that this was exposition scene for JKR, to me she just failed into 
giving Dumbledore at least a bit of compassion necessary to make him 
just a tiny bit  more sympathetic. 

 > Pippin:
> Of course he's angry at the way Petunia treated him. I just don't 
think
> he was ever angry that Petunia never loved him. What  indication 
has he
> ever given that that's the case? Is there canon?

Alla:

Harry himself says so. I see no reasons in this situation to assume 
that he lies. To me it is just common sense. Petunia is the only 
mother figure he knew for ten years. I think it would be strange if 
the child would not want the love from mother figure, no matter how 
horribly she treated him.

 
Betsy Hp;
<SNIP>
> I think Dumbledore is going through a similar experience.  Only in 
> his case, the boy died.  Would Sirius following Dumbledore's 
advice 
> and treating Kreacher well have changed the ending of OotP?  I 
doubt 
> it.  Kreacher had been twisted by Mrs. Black many years ago.  But 
> this is something Dumbledore can cling to.
> 
> Of course it's not helpful to Harry.  And I doubt Dumbledore would 
> have spoken about it to him except that Harry starts to set 
Kreacher 
> up as a scapegoat.  It was important, I think, that Dumbledore 
keep 
> Harry from fixating on Kreacher.  But once that door was opened, 
> Dumbledore was human enough, hurt enough, to express the "if only 
> he'd listened!" stuff.
<SNIP>


Alla:

Oh, Betsy, I think I like it. Anything works for me as long as we 
are not saying that Dumbledore was right to say all that horrible 
stuff about Sirius to Harry.

See, as I said, I still cannot find hurt Dumbledore in that scene ( 
one tear at the end just was not enough), I especially cannot find 
Dumbledore who is hurting for Sirius. I would like to see some 
indication if it, but I am perfectly Okay with assuming that it is 
there. I guess the real teacher would hurt for all his students. I 
do think that JKR could have written this scene with more 
persuasion, but this works for me too.

Anything as long as we are not saying that Dumbledore had a right to 
say all those things, because disrespect to the dead is a horrible 
offense in my book.

JMO,

Alla, who would probably never like this speech, but who is happy to 
engage in a bit of self-hypnosis to convince herself that Dumbledore 
was hurting for Sirius too.