Dumbledore on the Dursleys in OotP (LONG)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 151403

> Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Nobody but JKR could say whether treating Kreacher kindly would
> have made a difference in the end, but it denigrates Kreacher
> to say that it couldn't have. No one gave him a reason to choose 
> other than he did. 

Alla:

Of course only JKR can say that, just as only she can say whether 
Snape is a murderer or not, or whether Lupin is Evil or not :) and 
many other things, but when did it ever stopped us from wondering? :)

But I disagree. I think it denigrates Kreacher to say that wizards 
made him who he is and that is why and only why he chose what he did.

I view him as an intelligent human being (well, human being of 
another race, but human being nevertheless), or intelligent being 
would be the better way to say it? I am not sure.

I have very little sympathy for Kreacher on pure emotional level , 
but on the intellectual level I sympathize with his situation 
of course. Nevertheless I refuse to say that he is a robot incapable 
to choose for himself because he is enslaved.

As I said, I think Kreacher truly loved Sirius' parents and that is 
what determined his actions towards Sirius.


Pippin: 
> You keep saying that Dumbledore has no right to tell Harry these
> things. But if he doesn't, who does? Who is going to speak for 
Petunia
> or Kreacher if Dumbledore does not? He is Harry's headmaster, his
> guide, his mentor, and yes, his friend, but being a friend does not
> mean, IMO, unconditional agreement with positions that you find
> morally repugnant.

Alla:

And being a friend IMO also means respecting the grief of your 
friend and if necessary NOT to say the things which would disrespect 
the deceased and by that the person who loved him.

Oh, I have to also say before I will get these arguments -  the 
bitter taste in my mouth which I get when I read Dumbledore's 
badmouthing Sirius of course has nothing to do with me liking 
Sirius' character.

Let me bring the most obvious example. I think that there are not 
enough words in the world in order for Harry to express his very 
legitimate grievances against Snape and I would cheer him up if he 
tells at least something of it to Snape.

BUT if Snape would have died and his child ( twins - waves at 
Potioncat :)) or his parent had an encounter with Harry right after 
Snape's death and Harry would start badmouthing Snape to his 
relations, my reaction would be wanting to tell Harry to shut up and 
to shut up now, since I would think that would be a horrible conduct 
on his behalf.

 
Pippin:
<SNIP>
> I understand why you think that Dumbledore should not have
> tried to make this a teachable moment. But I agree with Steve,
> he just couldn't excuse himself another time. To quote Susan
> Cooper again, if once you have failed a great trust, you dare not
> let yourself be trusted again, because to fail again would be the
> end of the world. 

Alla:

I understand why JKR tried to make it a teachable moment, because 
IMO she did not want to put it in another book, but yes, I don't 
think it casts Dumbledore in a good light. As long as I am 
expressing myself clear 
enough on those reasons ( and I feel like I did it too many times by 
now :)), because we are not going to agree on it.

 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Harry himself says so. I see no reasons in this situation to 
assume 
> > that he lies. To me it is just common sense. Petunia is the only 
> > mother figure he knew for ten years. I think it would be strange 
if 
> > the child would not want the love from mother figure, no matter 
how 
> > horribly she treated him.
> 
> Pippin:
> Goodness me! Are we reading the same books?
> 
>  '"They're your family, after all, and I'm sure you are fond of 
one another 
> --er--*very* deep down."
> 
>  It didn't occur to Harry to put Fudge right.
> -- PoA. 
> 
> It's not something that gets talked about a lot, but babies  do 
reject
> their caregivers sometimes, even caregivers that love them, more
> often than you might think.
> 
> I see no reason to assume that there was ever any desire or 
instinct
> on Harry's part to bond with Petunia at all. There was certainly 
nothing
> by the time he was thirteen.


Alla:

Hehehe. Far apart from each other as we were on some issues, I used 
to think that we are close enough on some. But yes, it seems like on 
this topic we ARE reading different books.

All that this quote tells me that Harry and his family do not love 
each other. It tells me nothing as to whether Harry wants Petunia's 
love and since Harry is the one who tells me that he is indeed upset 
about Petunia not loving him, I choose to believe him. As I said I 
see no reason not to.

Besides, we seem to agree that Harry has plenty legitimate reasons 
to be angry with Petunia, so even if he IS just that - angry with 
her and is a bit confused as to him wanting her love, I think that 
substitution of one anger for another is really, really Okay, 
especially since Harry had it bottled up for so long.

I mean, you earlier implied is that Harry's anger with Petunia is 
covering his anger for Sirius' death. I don't see it anywhere. I 
think whatever anger Harry has at Petunia is just that with Petunia 
and for Dumbledore refusing to listen to him, well, I totally 
understand why he did, but of course I read it completely 
differently than you do.

I think Dumbledore cuts Harry off when he starts venting that she 
never loved him  for very simple reason and it has nothing to do 
with redirecting Harry's anger, etc. I think Dumbledore cannot bear 
listening to it. Why? Because Dumbledore indeed loves Harry and it 
is hard for him to listen the full account of Harry's misery, 
especially because he is the one who put Harry there.

Again, please let's not start arguing about whether Dumbledore had 
best intentions or not when he did it. :)

I think he did have those intentions, absolutely. The thing is I 
think he is responsible regardless, simply because he made this 
choice. Not in a sense that he should be punished for it, of course 
not, but in a sense that whatever Harry chooses to say about his 
stay at Dursleys, Dumbledore is obligated to listen in my book.


JMO,

Alla