Requiescat in Pace, My Dark Phoenix

[zgirnius]

No: HPFGUIDX 151446

WARNING-REALLY LONG!
(though perhaps not much longer that Talisman's...)

> Talisman:
> Talisman tosses aside her steaming quill, slides a 13 foot scroll 
> of responses in your direction, and snuggles up to a rather stiff-
> looking fellow in singed robes. 

zgirnius:
Womanfully suppresses urge to copy out Poe's "Annabel Lee" for 
Talisman...

> Talisman:
> Hmm.  Obviously shock induced bewilderment.  Elevate your feet and 
> stay warm. ; )

zgirnius:
I'm a pretty emotionally resilient sort. I did wait until I was past 
the but, but... stage of spluttering to reply the first time. But 
thanks for your kind concern...<g>

> Talisman:
> Hey now, we can't have that.  There's too much Devil in those 
> details to allow them to be swept under the rug.  

Zgirnius:
I did not. I found none of them convincing. It is a lovely theory, 
though, so if you insist
this is going to be a VERY long post.

Before I go into your details, though, I have a new question of my 
own. Accepting your theory for the sake of argument: Dumbledore 
turned into Snape and went down into Snape's office. He knew the game 
was afoot when Flitwick came for him. But Flitwick was sent, we are 
told, as a result of a spur-of-the-moment decision by McGonagall, 
which if the battle went better might never have been made. It could 
have happened that Draco, or another Death Eater, killed Snape, 
leaving Harry all alone with them. 

For me, this is a major reason to believe that Dumbledore told Draco 
the simple truth on the Tower-he truly believed there was no way 
Draco would get Death Eaters into Hogwarts, and thus he and Snape had 
no plans for that particular night.

> Talisman:
> Harry is not yet ready for his moment with Snape qua Snape, but he 
> will find this interaction quite poignant in retrospect, I assure 
> you.  

Zgirnius:
I do get the whole glorious, full-blown heroic picture you are trying 
to paint here, Talisman. I do. I just don't think it is what Rowling 
wrote/will write. My bottom line objection to your theory (and also 
the Spinner's End Snape was Dumbledore theory) is that in Spinner's 
End and The Flight of the Prince Rowling lavished some lovely 
character moments on Snape, and likewise in the Cave and Tower she 
did the same for Dumbledore, and I just really am not convinced she 
would have done this for the wrong person(s), as I have already tried 
to explain.

Talisman:
> I see, zgirnius, that you are from the DDM camp, so I trust you 
read 
> Snape as diametrically opposed to Voldemort (he would *never* wear 
a 
> turban; he appears in Fake!Moody's Foe Glass, etc.); and that you 
> understand the magnanimity of his actions.

Zgirnius:
I'd compliment you on your perceptiveness
only I think this is only 
too clear
<g>

> Talisman:
< snip other Cave quotes >
> And, as they set out to keep Snape's appointment with death, he 
says 
> *I am not worried...I am with you* (578).

Zgirnius:
I do not see Snape as having that kind of personal belief in Harry at 
this stage any more than I see Harry as ready to accept it at present 
(on this latter point at least, we agree). He goes along with 
Dumbledore because he has heard the Prophecy, and also because he is 
willing to some extent to trust Dumbledore's judgment, but I really 
see him as mirroring Harry. Canon basis for my feeling? The 
Sectumsempra chapter, mostly, I guess, and assorted remarks by Snape 
about Harry in PoA and OotP, though certainly the Flight of the 
Prince probably colors my view as well. So while I can see Harry 
retrospectively getting the full emotional benefit of this moment, I 
can't see Snape in the moment delivering this line with sincerity. 
And that makes it a partly wasted line, to me, if your theory is 
correct.

To me, Snape kills Dumbledore on the Tower because Dumbledore asks 
him to, and goes off to rejoin the Death Eaters as a spy in deep 
cover to carry out Dumbledore's plan that he be there to help Harry 
if needed in the final confrontation. Even though he has his own 
doubts on the subject of Harry, which only makes the whole situation 
that much more poignant to me.

Talisman:
> Having raised the topic of Snape's tireless efforts, permit me to 
> indulge in a short digression regarding his protection of Harry in 
> PoA (there is hardly enough volume for a separate post and I have 
> nowhere else at the moment to stick this, though I'm sure my 
> opponents will have suggestions....) <snip rest>

Zgirnius:
Oh, you are *SO* clever to have thought of that. I love it. I'm 
buying. And it ties in so nicely with that Dementor essay in HBP, 
which you of course knew nothing about!

But, I think we have not seen our last Dementor. And I do think that 
in Book 7, we will see Snape dealing with them in his other way. I 
really like the Book 3/Book 7 parallel idea, you see, and you've just 
given me another possible little bit to add to it. 

> Talisman:
> Therefore, the Curse has been honored: Snape taught the DADA class, 
> and did not last more than one year.
> 
> Or did you mean something else?

Zgirnius:
I did mean something else, but you can hardly be blamed for failing 
to read my mind. Having considered it longer, though-I am satisfied 
on this point. The Curse did work, you are right and I withdraw this 
objection.

> Talisman:
> In light of Draco's two previously failed attempts, I suggest that 
> the trigger for the third clause of Snape's UV was intentionality.  
> 
> Neither the cursed opals nor the poisoned mead succeeded in 
> accomplishing the Dark Lord's deed, yet Snape's heart beat on. 
> 
> Theoretically then, Draco could have continued sending toxic socks 
> and potted tentaculas, etc. for the remainder of Dumbledore's 
> natural life, and could miss the mark every time, without untoward 
> vow consequences. 

Zgirnius:
Yet another interpretation of what the Vow means, precisely
Aaaargh. 
I had decided the key was `*seems* to fail'. The key being the 
public/evident nature of the failure. So on the Tower I saw the 
problem not in Draco's realization that he did not want to do it, but 
in the untimely arrival of four inconvenient witnesses, to see 
Draco's seeming failure and report it to Voldemort.

OK, so much for this post
.back to the original!

> Talisman draws back her black veil, to tell you the sad truth:
> 
> Ah, fun theories about Slughorn or Pettigrew taking Dumbledore's
> place.  I wish I could subscribe to them, but, let us face facts:
> there is only one surrogate with the mighty cahones required for the
> action of the cave and the tower, Severus Snape.

Zgirnius:
As you have surmised, you'll get no argument from me on this point.

> Talisman:
> From a meta standpoint, this preserves Snape's ever-elusive nature.
> By the time Harry (and the average reader) comprehends the totality
> of Snape's heroism, he will be far beyond their effusive, and
> meaningless, regrets.

Zgirnius:
This is to some extent a matter of personal taste. I would much 
prefer (from a meta standpoint, as you say) to have Rowling make 
Harry and Snape come to terms in real time. It depends, of course, on 
what story exactly you think Rowling is trying to tell.

Talisman:
> Certainly DD's death was a fake.  The series explores and signals
> the ruse of death in nearly every book.

Zgirnius:
Something about it was fake, yes. But any number of theories share 
this trait. Dumbledore could have been Dumbledore and still be alive, 
for example (not that I personally buy this theory). 

Talisman:
> I would expect Snape to be even better at impersonating DD.
<snip discussion of Snape the spy and actor>

Zgirnius:
Yes, Snape could impersonate DD. Doesn't mean he did, and I axplained 
above why I, personally, doubt Rowling would have had him do so in 
the scenes in question.

> Talisman:
> The list of obvious methods have been recited in every Switch!
Theory.
<snip lengthy discussion of feasibility>

Zgirnius:
I grant Snape could have been Polyjuiced, and Dumbledore wouldn't 
need to be. Were I the author of the theory, I would have the Prince 
invent a longer lasting Polyjuice Potion, and Dumbledore, well, he 
WAS Transfiguration professor, so I think his ability to like 
whatever he chooses is pretty much a given. That it is plausible in 
Rowling's world does not mean that it happened, though.

> Talisman:
> The DADA professor always has a role to play in the denouement.
> But, in all other books, the DADA professor has also been the new
> character to the book.

Zgirnius:
Well, if Snape killed Dumbledore, this would certainly be the case in 
HBP


<snip comments about Slughorn and Peter>

Zgirnius:
Another area of complete agreement.
 

> Talisman:
> Switched!Snape is foreshadowed in GoF by the dying Mrs. Crouch who
> convinces Barty Sr. to allow her to take Jr.'s place.   However, in
> HBP, it is the doomed Snape (no more worries about how to get out of
> the UV) who convinces DD to make the switch.

Zgirnius:
I would be quite interested how you would splice the snippets of 
conversation that we have from Hagrid into the conversation you 
propose took place.

Talisman:
> Now, like Barty Jr., Switched!DD is free to move behind enemy lines,
> in someone else's  guise and--like Fake!Moody--he is doubly cloaked
> in the enemy's false belief in his demise.

Zgirnius:
Or Snape is free to move behind enemy lines, now cloaked in his 
enemy's false belief in his treason. I love the little 
Voldemort/Dumbledore contrast that Voldemort absolutely could not 
imagine that Dumbledore would *order* Snape to kill him for any 
reason whatsoever. I mean, in a way it still works if Snape died, 
since Voldemort would hardly expect that either, but Voldemort and 
Dumbledore are each other's counterparts in the story, not Voldemort 
and Snape.

> Talisman:
> *[Snape] is now no more a Death Eater than I am* (591).
> 
> The old waffler just couldn't say * Snape is not a DE* could he? And
> of course, Snape IS a DE, albeit a traitorous one.

Zgirnius:
I don't see the point of such switches, routinely. They are risky, 
and surely Dumbledore can trust Snape to report back fully and 
accurately? (There's always the Pensieve, if Dumbledore wants to see 
for himself). I took the statement to be poetic emphasis, just as 
Dumbledore's reference to Snape's `return'.


Talisman:
> I expect it was Switched!Snape in the office, prior to the cave
> outing, ergo the blanching when Harry confronts him about Snape
> being the one who told LV about the Prophesy.

Zgirnius:
While it is certainly an excellent reason for Snape to blanch, given 
that Dumbledore has tried to hide this fact form Harry for a year 
now, and has been fending off Harry's suspicions of Snape for a year, 
it seems to me a more than adequate reason for Dumbledore to blanch 
as well.

> Talisman:
> For general evidence, there is, of course, that oft-quoted line
> about how *...with the sudden agility of a much younger man,
> Dumbledore slid from the boulder, landed in the sea, and began to
> swim, with a perfect breaststroke, toward the dark slit in the rock
> face, his lit wand held in his teeth* (HBP 557). Nice touch, the
> wand in the teeth.

Zgirnius:
But under your theory, in this scene Snape is Polyjuiced into 
Dumbledore. He is therefore in the body of a 150 year old man. It 
seems to me, were I to Polyjuice into a little old lady, I would 
suddenly have a lot more trouble opening jars of jam
and were I to 
Polyjuice into an NFL offensive lineman, moving the furniture around 
in my home would become SOO much easier.

Now, I can see your saying Snape is acting out of habit here (since 
in his own body he *would* be a much younger man) and then hiding his 
discomfort from Harry when it reoinds him he's currently occupying a 
body with some limitations. But the same could be said of Dumbledore 
(he acts energetically and resolutely in the heat of the moment even 
though he knows he's too old for this.) I don't see this as 
demonstrating anything.

Talisman:
> There is more evidence that it's Snape in the cave:
> 
> The knife Switched!Snape uses in the cave is *a short silver knife
> of the kind Harry used to chop potion ingredients* (HBP 559).

Zgirnius:
Suggestive. On the other hand, all the students at Hogwarts have one, 
as Potions is a required subject. It may be something a wizard would 
tend to have on their person. Snape, after all, is teaching DADA this 
year. Why would HE be carrying his Potions knife around on this 
particular mission?

Talisman:
> Moreover, the incantation Switched!Snape uses to heal his arm is the
> same one Snape used earlier to heal Draco's wounds.
> 
> *You are very kind, Harry," said Dumbledore, now passing his wand
> over the deep cut he had made in his own arm, so that it healed
> instantly, just as Snape had healed Malfoy's wounds* (HBP 560).

Zgirnius:
The man in the Cave, as your quote shows, did not speak/sing the 
incantation, unlike Snape in the bathroom. Possibly indicative of a 
higher degree of power/skill/experience which Dumbledore has. (Or of 
the relative insignificance of the wound being healed
my point is 
that the evidence can be seen either way, not that you are wrong.)

Talisman:
> I don't know how many have noticed all the corollaries between
> Books 2 and 6. They are rampant.

Zgirnius:
I have, I like the theory that 1 and 5, 2 and 6, and 3 and 7 
have/will have similarities (I first saw the idea on Red Hen's site, 
though I do not necessarily subscribe to her precise theory of this).

Talisman:
> In my own opinion, the memory potion is a symmetrical reversal of
> Lockhart's end of book memory loss.
> 
> The symmetry requires that the person experiencing the potion
> induced surfeit of memory in HBP be Lockhart's opposite, and that
> would definitely be Snape.
> 
> The fact that they are each DADA professors in the respective books
> completes the *butterfly effect.*

Zgirnius:
This works, but one could try and draw different parallels/reverse 
parallels. It's not a game I'm that good at, but Snape seeming to be 
a total villain at the end of Book 6 when he really is far from it 
seems a reasonable mirror of Lockhart proving to be a descipcable 
nobody when he played the heroic rescuer. Note Lockhart survived his 
experience


>Talisman:
> But, on further reflection, I believe he is reliving the murder of
> his family as a penalty for his failure or refusal, as a young DE,
> do something the Dark Lord had ordered him to do.

Zgirnius:
I'll take your Guilty!Dumbledore theory instead, thanks. I have no 
problem with an epitome of good that has some serious skeletons in 
his closet from 120 or so years ago


>Talisman:
> This also satisfies the intra-book symmetry: he protects Draco from
> what he then demonstrates he has suffered himself.

Zgirnius:
It's not intra-book if Snape was not in the Cave
but Snape's 
willingness to help Draco could very well originate to some extent in 
his own back story, I don't doubt it.

> Talisman:
> Like when Snape toasts * [t]he Dark Lord* at Spinners End (24), and
> then toasts Harry while in the cave, as Switched!DD (570).

Zgirnius:
Dumbledore also drinks a toast at the start of Book 6.

<snip long discussion of pleading>

Zgirnius:
Not a problem for me, your explanation is logical within your theory. 
There are also excellent reasons why Dumbledore would be pleading in 
that scene, however. (Personally, I think it is because he had just 
decided he was not rescuable under the circumstances, and was afraid 
Snape would nonetheless sacrifice himself in a vain attempt, which 
would also place Draco and Harry in greater danger).

Talisman:
> And, it's a nice symmetry to Snape's being the recipient of
> Narcissa's pleading, in the beginning.

Zgirnius:
As is Snape's being the recipient of Dumbledore's pleading, you must 
admit. And hey, my way both pleading parties have some concern for 
Draco as part of their motivation.