House Elf Loyalty

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 151622

> Alla wrote:
> > 
> > Bud do we know that the first House Elves agreed to serve out of 
his 
> > own free will? Do we know that they were not being tricked into 
> > agreement or even worse - were forced to sign an agreement?
<SNIP>

> Carol responds:
> 
> But what does freedom for house-elves *mean* and what would it 
entail?
> 
> Since the house-elves appear to be derived from the elves and 
brownies
> of English folklore (as opposed to Faerie, like Tolkien's very
> different Elves), I doubt that they ever signed or were tricked 
into
> an agreement. It seems to be their nature to work for humans 
although
> it's nonmagical ordinary humans (Muggles, though the term isn't 
used)
> who receive their aid in folklore, cf. the story of the shoemaker 
and
> the elves cited by another poster in this thread. (Witches and 
wizards
> wouldn't need their aid as they have their own magic.)

Alla:

I am going to have to disagree here, I think. Or at least 
tentatively disagree. House Elfs SEEM to be the relatives of elfs 
and brownies from English folklore, true, but IMO we don't know that 
it leads to them having ALL qualities of those creatures. IMO it is 
perfectly reasonable to assume that JKR took some of the qualities 
of those creatures, but not all of them and accordingly made their 
paths diverged so to speak at some point.

Therefore I do think that with JKR saying that House Elfs situation 
is a metaphor for slavery ( she did not say the word metaphor, but 
it is the easiest interpretation IMO) it is perfectly possible that 
House Elfs were tricked into that agreement initially.

JKR takes folklore creatures, yes, but while she makes them similar 
in some instances in others she makes them different too, no?

Like werewolfs? Like probably vampires in her world? We don't know 
whether her vampires are identical to the ones we read about in 
other books, IMO.


Carol:
> The question for me is what happens to a house-elf who is freed. 
For
> Winky, it's the ultimate disgrace. Even Dobby suffered a longish
> period of unemployment.
<SNIP>


Alla:

The problem is we ONLY know about TWO freed elfs, that's all. Winky 
and Dobby indeed react to situation differently. Just as people 
react to same situations differently. Winky is unhappy with the 
freedom indeed, but Dobby is very very happy. So, I don't think that 
Winky's unhappiness necessarily represents how House Elfs in general 
would react to being freed. For all I know Winky is an exception and 
Dobby is a rule? I mean, I think that both possibilities are equal. 

Oh, and I am reacting to thread in general here, not just to your 
argument.




 
Carol:
<SNIP>
> Suppose they were suddenly freed against their will. Would they 
regard
> themselves as "sacked" and disgraced, like Winky? Would they ignore
> the situation and continue working of their own free will, refusing
> wages from a sense of honor? Would they even have that option?

Alla:

I am NOT at all saying that they should be freed against their will. 
I am saying that I cannot be persuaded based on Winky's reaction 
that all House Elfs do not want to be freed. Of course you could 
argue same with Dobby, but that is what I am saying - at the end we 
will learn that House Elfs in their majority will react either like 
Dobby or like Winky to being freed and we don't know what that will 
be, but here is where JKR's position helps me to argue that they 
indeed will be quite Okay with their freedom. I am not saying that 
it will be easy for them at all, but I am just puzzled of the 
certainty expressed in this thread ( again not reacting just to your 
argument) that House Elfs LIKE serving humans. They may be and as I 
argued in another thread about Kreacher, I am pretty sure that he 
genuinely loved Sirius' parents (IMO of course), I don't think 
slavery makes them robots, but I think it is an analogy for slavery.


Carol:
> My guess is that if the MoM passed an edict freeing house-elves, 
the
> vast majority of them, including the Hogwarts house-elves, would 
stay
> where they were, serving their former masters by choice and 
refusing
> wages.

Alla:

Um, your guess is as good as anybody's of course. And you may as 
well be correct, I just don't see it as anything more than a 
possibility and I think that the exact opposite is also possible.


Carol:
 Kreacher would probably *choose* to serve Bellatrix or Narcissa
> or Draco, in that order, and if all of them were dead or 
imprisoned,
> he would go back to the portrait of his mistress to enjoy his 
misery.

Alla:

I agree here, but not because of House Elfs nature, but because of 
who Kreacher himself is.


JMO,

Alla