House Elf Loyalty

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 151645

> Magpie:
> Oh! Yes, we don't know how the thing started, and so we can't say 
whether 
> they're not under some enchantment.  I think where the problem 
comes in, 
> though, is that it begs the question of why a House Elf's words 
mean less 
> than a wizard's.  That is, if the elves very vocally want things 
one way, 
> and wizards decide that they don't know what's good for 
themselves, how is 
> that giving them their freedom?  We see House Elves acting freely 
a lot in 
> canon, just around the rules of their own culture.  So it's hard 
to know 
> where to draw the line between where the culture ends and their 
true 
> feelings begin.

Alla:

I think though those whether House Elves are enslaved or not and 
whether what Hermione does is right or not are two connected but 
separate issues. IMO there is no question that while JKR approves 
Hermione's goals wholeheartedly, her means to achieve her goal are 
very questionable.

What I am trying to say that IMO Hermione will get it in book 7 that 
freeing House Elves against their will is very wrong and she will 
find some other ways to show them that freedom is a good thing, not 
an easy thing by all means, but good thing.

Magpie: 
> It's true we don't know if all elves would react to freedom as 
badly as 
> Winky does--Hermione unfortunately does not seem able to even 
really 
> acknowledge this as a problem.  She can't really help Winky 
because she's 
> projecting her own views on the situation and just can't get into 
Winky's 
> mindset.

Alla:

I completely agree with you as I said above. Hermione's ways of 
dealing with the situation are wrong. What I do disagree with (again 
not with you, just in general) is that we will learn that Hermione 
was no supposed to react to situation at all.

IMO it is classical "her heart is the right place"; she is just 
doing it incorrectly.

 
Magpie:
<SNIP>
> This is also what makes Dobby so problematic to me, because he's 
such a 
> caricature of Wizard Worship. Even to the point of the problem I 
keep 
> coming back to, which is that when the House Elves essentially go 
on strike 
> by not cleaning Gryffindor Tower to protest Hermione's insult, he 
does it 
> himself and takes away all the hats, flattering Hermione and 
silencing the 
> House Elves.  He's just such a weird character for me because he 
seems 
> frankly more subservient to Wizards than the other House Elves, 
while at the 
> same time less because he's not a slave.


Alla:

I cannot grasp fully why Dobby does not work for me. Maybe that is 
because I found his ways to save Harry in CoS to be so very idiotic 
and harmful to Harry.

As to the worship, well, he does not worship all wizards, no? He 
worships Harry just as the whole WW does, so I suppose Dobby can be 
read as caricature of that.

Although I guess Dobby is quite ecstatic to work for DD so one can 
argue that he worships Dumbledore too.


Magpie:
If all House Elves were like Dobby I 
> can easily imagine a new found freedom lasting only a couple of 
generations 
> before it started to become slavery again--which could be the 
point, for all 
> I know.  Maybe that's the way they became enslaved!

Alla:

Hehe. You could be right of course. As I said I find three elves, 
who have more or less developed characters so far to be annoying, 
all for different reasons, although since I buy the metaphor of 
slavery, I feel for them as a group, but if we meet some other elves 
and they would be just as annoying, I may stop feeling for them as a 
group too.

You know, I think centaurs are incredibly cool and can totally 
understand their prejudice to humans. I feel for them on the 
emotional level and want them and humans to be at least friendly at 
the end.

That may have something to do with me loving Greek mythology all my 
life (I am quite well versed in it), so when I saw centaurs in 
Potterverse, I was liking them already.

I like Goblins a lot and want to know more about their culture too ( 
Hmmm, can JKR write some more books about these two races, I 
wonder? :-))

But as I said, for some reason I don't "feel" for House Elves much, 
except because I am supposed to feel that slavery as bad ( funny - 
exactly what JKR said - that we are supposed to feel that, but of 
course many people don't like to feel what they are supposed to and 
on some issues me neither).

It is probably because I don't feel much for the individual House 
Elves we met. I guess Winky is the only one for whom I feel pity, 
but again that is just pity, nothing more.

Dobby is... As I said I am not sure who he is and Kreacher is a 
traitor, who betrayed one of my very favorite characters. Nope, 
don't sympathize much with either of them.


> Alla:
> my main thing is that I don't remember any proof in canon
> that House Elfs willingly entered their service to humans. That is
> why I am hesitant to agree that they really like such service.
> 
> Kemper now:
> Hi Alla.  You're right there is no canon.  BUT
 there is canon 
that a
> wandless HE can kick a wanded wizard's ass.  So
 why would an HE 
enter
> into a contract of any kind with a magical human?  The only reason 
I
> can think is that their life purpose/mission is to serve, and some
> magical human took advantage while no other magical human 
questioned
> the ethics of it, making it ok for other magical humans to do the
> same.  And wah-la
 time passes and there's a culture of indentured
> servitude.
> 

Alla:

Hey, Kemper :).

Yep, House Elf can kick wizard's butt and isn't it very telling that 
the moment Dobby is free he DOES kick wizard's butt , but not prior 
to him being free?

So, isn't it possible that this is what may happen with many house 
elves after they become free, namely that they will kick the butts 
of their former masters when they are fully able to?

I can come up with some other reasons of why first HE would enter 
into agreement with humans. Like for example they were blackmailed 
into such agreement? Wizards took something from them and would not 
return unless elves would agree to serve them?

I mean this is of course a wild speculation, but I am just saying 
that this is not a given that House Elves would enter into such 
agreement because they like it.

They may or they may not, we just don't know it yet IMO and here is 
where I choose to go with JKR's words.
 
JMO,

Alla