Scene with likable James WAS: Re: Eileen Pince

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 156303

Brothergib
> However, I can think of an (almost) direct comparison. When Mad 
> Eye/Crouch Jr turns Draco into a ferret. I'm pretty sure that Snape 
> went for his wand first to get at James, just as Draco was attempting 
> to curse/hex Harry. Mad Eye/Crouch turns Draco into a ferret and then 
> torments him a little bit, just as James torments Snape. Finally a 
> crowd of onlookers are laughing at this display in both scenes.
> The major difference between the scenes is that most of the people I 
> know are actually amused by this scene. If you are honest with 
> yourselves, how did it make you feel??

When I first read GOF, it was at the end of back to back readings of
the first 4 books.  That was back when I thought of the injuries
people went through in a sort of cartoonish way, or like when Raol
Dahl's characters get hurt.  By the end of GOF, I completely changed
my mind on that -- it was clear that people in HP aren't supposed to
be cartooned or Dahl types, even if their names are often funny. 
Following that realization, I realized that what happened to Draco in
GOF is Not right.  Hermione, in fact, points that out right after that
scene.  I noticed in the film they left out Moody actually bouncing
Draco/ferret painfully on the pavement.  Maybe the filmmakers realized
that the "good" students wouldn't look nearly so nice if they were
actually viewed in a film laughing at that.

In any case, at that point I think JKR wanted the reader to feel what
Harry felt -- Draco is finally getting what he deserved.  Then JKR has
Hermione state the truth.  What fake-Moody did was wrong and Draco
could have been seriously injured.

But in the Snape's Worst Memory scene, we're again supposed to see it
from Harry's viewpoint.  Only this time, Harry is watching some
teenagers who he's never really seen (at least as teens) before.  At
that point, the reality of what is going on is much more plain to
Harry than when Moody hexed Draco.

Joe:

<Sorry but teenage boys are just that agressive and most do or have
<done what
<you call bullying. At different levels certainly but most do it in
<some form or
<another.

wynnleaf
While I'm sure this is the way you experienced things, apparently
that's not a general "truth."  As a mom of three teenagers, I've been
pretty interested in this aspect of the conversation, and so started
asking my kids and their friends (and boyfriends).  It all depends on
how you look at what James and Sirius were doing.  If you see it as
equivalent to mild pranks, then yes, most guys pull pranks on each
other at one time or another.  But if you see if as equivalent to
accosting another kid without provocation, and having your friend hold
him down while you and your friend hit and insult him -- well, that's
not *nearly* a common thing and seems to be regarded by the kids I
asked as bullying behavior.

As regards the "pantsed" thing, I do recall a specific instance among
my kid's friends of a teenager who *was* pretty destressed when that
kind of prank was pulled on him, and he was a fairly popular kid with
lots of public support.  I know that's anecdotal, but I'm not trying
to say, Joe, that you're *wrong,* exactly, but that it's not
necessarily the same among all teenage guys everywhere.

Joe
<How so? To show a teenage James hexing Snape is going to cause Harry <to
<forgive Snape for the deaths of his parents or for joining a group of
<people set
<on genocide? Or to forgive Draco for Dumbledore's death and Bill's
<disfigurement?

wynnleaf
I don't think anyone really expects Harry to be forgiving Snape if
Snape is really an evil Death Eater who murdered Dumbledore. 
Obviously, this is assuming Snape's loyal and Harry will need to
forgive him to get on with destroying LV.  In which case, he'll need
to find it in himself to forgive Snape's initially joining LV and
taking the prophecy to LV.  Understanding the nature of the hatred
between Snape and James *may* help in that, particularly if Harry sees
that much of the blame for the enmity between Snape and James lies
with James.

Brothergib:
>If we had seen Snape as a
> student behaving like Draco, would that scene have upset us so
>much?

wynnleaf
Probably not.  But the fact is, we *haven't* seen that, have we?  We
know that adult Snape comes across as pretty bitter and verbally
abusive.  But we don't really know for sure what Snape was like in
school.  Sure, we've got the reports of Sirius and Lupin, but since
they were part of the Marauders, who we *know* from the pensieve scene
were bullying toward him, we can't really be certain of the complete
veracity of their opinions.  Not that they'd necessarily intentionally
lie about Snape to Harry, but it's pretty typical for people to try to
rationalize or downplay their bullying behavior.  As far as concrete
evidence, we don't have much.  I find it interesting that in Harry's
detention in HBP, he finds many, many files about the Marauder's
misdeeds, but apparently none about Snape's.  Of course, that could
just mean that Snape was better about not getting caught -- but once
again, if we're just looking for concrete evidence of Snape being just
as bad as the Marauders, JKR hasn't given it to us yet.  

Back to my original thought about why JKR doesn't actually show us
scenes with a good James -- I don't know.  But it's interesting.  The
best things we know about James (character, not talent, that is), is
that Lily came to love him, Hagrid appears to have liked him, and DD
says that James would have acted much like Harry did toward Peter.  We
know he served with the Order, defied LV 3 times, and died trying to
protect his family.  On the converse side (character wise), we know he
acted like an arrogant bully, probably to more than just Snape, that
he got into a lot of trouble in school, a number of people in school
seemed to consider him arrogant.  On balance, we see a person with
some major strengths as well as big weaknesses.  It's just interesting
to me that the weaknesses are more dramatically communicated by JKR,
because she shows us them in an action/dialogue sequence rather than
another character simply retelling some info about James.

wynnleaf
wynnleaf