Scene with likeable James WAS: Re: Eileen Pince LONGish

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 156306

> Irene: 
> > But that's the point, we don't know anything about
> > grown-up James. The only fact we know - he was
> > prepared to die for his family - does not prove
> > anything about his character either way.
> 
> Pippin:
> We do know some other things. James defied Voldemort
> three times. That took rare courage, especially since as
> a pureblood it wasn't his fight.
> 
>  We're also told that saving Pettigrew from
> the vengeance of Sirius and Lupin is something that James 
> would have done. In other words, he would have opposed his
> friends if he thought what they were doing was wrong.  JKR
> has already made it clear that she thinks this is the highest 
> form of moral courage. 

Alla:

We also know per JKR's interview that both James and Lily worked 
while they did not have to do so, to me that speaks rather good of 
their nature. That they did not just set to enjoy their wealth, etc.

Irene:
> OK, likeable is a confusing word. You can be
> unpleasant but still liked. Let's talk about decent.
> My opinion is that James and Sirius didn't care about
> being decent to the people outside of their pack.
> Failing "the waitress test", you know.

Alla:

What is the waitress test? :) I have just couple more questions and 
them we  will just agree to disagree :) Just want to be absolutely 
clear, in your opinion Weasleys do not belong to the members of the 
Sirius' pack?

Or maybe we should switch from **pack** to friends?

Irene:
> Sirius didn't care about Ron being scared when he
> stood by his bed with knife, or about Ron being hurt
> in the Shrieking Shack.

Alla:

but isn't it the point in Sirius' favor that the moment he started to 
feel a bit less insane, he started caring for Ron? That they did 
become friendly afterwards?

Irene:
 Was vicious with Molly when
> she disagreed with him.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Just to be clear, we are still talking about that one remark, right? 
Well, he was. I would have been too, to tell you the truth. I 
understand Molly's concerns, but I would have at the very least told 
her to shut up.

Irene:
> I hope I clarified it above. But on top of it, I think
> Molly genuinely disapproved of Sirius as well. Nothing
> to do with my argument here, though.

Alla:

Yes, you did, but do you have the support for Molly genuinely 
dissaproving of Sirius in general? Just wondering.

  
Alla:
> > I am sorry, I cannot buy your examples, I don't find
> > them convincing 
> > at all. JMHO.
Irene: 
> Never expected otherwise. That's not why we are
> talking. :-)

Alla:

Of course, we are not talking to convince each other that the other 
one is wrong. We are talking to have fun. What I meant though that 
there are some ( not many, but some) hard canon facts,which  IMO one 
has no choice but to bow to, even if one does not want to, because 
one cannot interpret them the other way. I just don't find your 
examples to be of that variety, that is all.

For example, you know what I think about Snape. :) But there is 
**one** piece of canon that I cannot explain away as him being a 
bastard, so while it does not convince me of Snape being good or 
anything like that, it sure is a hint to me that maybe he has some 
human feelings left in him. Because as you also know one of the 
biggest things I held against Snape is him not expressing any other 
feelings but hate.

The examples of Sirius hurting Ron just out of Azkaban, when he was 
ready to hurt everybody just does not cut it for me as Sirius being 
mean to Ron.

Because I think that **anybody** just out of Azkaban would be in the 
half insane or fully insane mental state. And I just cannot judge 
their true nature,when they are insane. I would not even judge Snape, 
if he would be out of Azkaban. IMO of course. 

> > Alla:
> > 
> > You said that they were only likeable to their pack.

Irene: 
> I said that they only bothered to be decent,
> honourable and friendly towards members of their pack.

Alla:

Well, the original post talked about likeable James, no? 

> Brothergib:
>  If we had seen Snape as a 
> > student behaving like Draco, would that scene have upset us so 
> much?
> 
> Magpie:
> Probably not, I agree.  Harry himself says just that when he thinks 
> the scene would be fine if done to Draco.  Harry also loses 
sympathy 
> for Snape when he has to deal with him as an adult.  But does that 
> mean Harry's instinctive reaction to the scene is completely 
wrong?  
> I'm not so sure.

Alla:

Hmmm, I am pretty sure that Harry's instinctive reaction to the scene 
is right,**but** I also think that we will find out more about the 
reasons for their animosity.

Heeee, but on the other hand, is Harry only right when he feels 
sympathy for Snape? Is his instinctive reaction to what occurred on 
the Tower also right? Because I think that it absolutely is, although 
we may find out more about that. ( just thinking, Magpie, not really 
replying to you in the last sentence).

But as to the whether the scene would have upset us if Snape behaved 
as Draco. But I already know that he behaves horribly as an adult IMO 
of course and I just cannot buy him being quiet and introverted child 
at school either, maybe the one who quietly created deadly curses :), 
we also know that half of the school knew Levicorpus and unless it is 
spelled out in canon that somebody ( marauders or whoever) stole the 
book from Snape, I will go with Snape demonstrating curse on somebody 
or to his Slytherin friends.
Nothing of that has to do with bullying obviously, but with having 
sympathy for Snape.
It is indeed fun to shatter the perceptions of the characters and 
pick them up again.

Brothergib:
<SNIP>
> We know how Draco has treated Harry prior to this scene.
> We do not know how Snape treated James prior to the pensieve scene.
> If we had seen Snape treating James badly prior to this scene - 
would 
> we still feel sympathy for Snape?

Alla:

Yeah, and look how slowly JKR introduces the possibility that Snape 
may 
have treated Marauders badly too. In OOP we only hear Sirius' " James 
always hated Dark Arts" ,which sounds as Sirius justifying James 
behaviour, while in HBP we already see that Snape created at least 
one 
deadly curse, from which person can bleed to death,if not healed as 
aptly demonstrated.

No, Snape is of course not shown to do something horrible to 
marauders 
at school yet, although I would say he had plenty of revenge after 
school on Potters family, but we already know that even in horrible 
Pensieve scene he receives back what he created himself.

I do wonder what we will learn about their relationship in book 7. 
With 
the introduction of Black family tree, I am even more convinced that 
either Snape and James or Snape and Sirius were somehow related. 

JMHO,

Alla