Hogwarts: Real or Cartoon? (was:Scene with likeable James WAS: Re: Eileen Pince

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 156398

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I don't know, I think maybe the inclination to color the        
> > Potterverse as a cartoon is ducking the big questions.  If it    
> > was bad for a teacher to make Harry carve words into his hand,  
> > might it not have been equally bad for a teacher to slam Draco   
> > repeatedly into the floor?  And what does it say about us that   
> > we were amused at first?

> >>Lupinlore:
> Or those of us who still find that scene incredibly amusing.       
> Karmic justice usually is.  It is one thing that JKR does do quite 
> well, when she chooses to.

Betsy Hp:
Actually, I think JKR is crap at writing karmic justice, if that's 
what she's really trying to do.  She's terribly sloppy about telling 
us what sin is being punished, and clearly showing the righteousness 
of the person meting out the karma.  Roald Dahl writes rings around 
her with that sort of thing.  (Of course, I don't think JKR is 
trying to be the next Roald Dahl.  I seriously doubt karmic justice 
is what it's all about in these books.)

> >>Lupinlore:
> Is it revenge?  Sure.  But justice inevitably has a component of
> revenge.  Indeed, a trial lawyer I know once told me that the      
> justice system serves many purposes -- protection of society,      
> rehabilitation etc.  But one purpose it serves is a limited and   
> legitimated mechanism of revenge... <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I do agree that there is an element of revenge or punishment in 
justice.  An *element*.  But justice is also made up of many more 
elements.  The scene where Draco is tortured is as much about 
justice as the scene where Harry is tortured.  Which is none at 
all.  It's vengence pure and simple.  Which most civilized societies 
try not to confuse with justice.

> >>Ken:
> First, I posted a reply to this last night. Since it has not      
> appeared here yet I assume that Yahoomort, as someone else calls   
> our host, has eaten it and I apologise if it appears later on.

Betsy Hp:
::shakes fist at Yahoo!Mort in sympathy::

> >>Ken:
> <snip>
> For me the Dursleys are completely cardboard characters and as
> cartoonish as Wile E. Coyote. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
When I read the first book I agreed with you.  But as the books went 
on the Dursleys became more and more "real" to me.  I mean, sure, 
there's an element of satire to them, but Dudley's fear of the 
Dementors, for example, struck me as quite real.  If a child is 
scared enough that he actually throws up it's hard for me to take 
him as a cartoon.  And both Petunia's and Vernon's reactions also 
struck me as "real".  Vernon is a blow-hard who has *never* accepted 
Harry as family, but I felt that his love for Dudley was quite 
genuine.

I'm not sure if JKR has meant for the Dursleys to slowly become more 
human, or if she kind of changed her mind mid-stream, but I think a 
change has occured.

> >>Ken:
> So many of the events at Hogwarts, all the pratfalls in the       
> courses, the hallway battles, the things the twins to *to         
> themselves* have a very cartoonish, unreal feel to them.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I agree, to an extent.  Obviously magic isn't real and there's a 
cartoonish aspect to, say Peeves making students set their underwear 
on fire.  But not all the magic is cartoonish.  Dudley has to have 
surgery to remove the pig tail Hagrid gave him.  Draco is in pain 
after his session with Fake!Moody (revealed to be a known sadistic 
Death Eater).  Harry still has the scars from his encounters with 
Umbridge's magical quill.  Goodness, Harry is an orphan because of 
magic.  And while taking part in a magical contest, Cedric Diggory 
is killed.  Also with magic.

For there to be a clear line (and that's the only way I could see 
JKR successfully attempting to integrate a cartoon story and a more 
real story) I think there needs to be a definitive moment when Harry 
moves from one "real" world to the "cartoon" other.  We've already 
seen that the Hogwarts Express is not it.  Honestly I don't think 
there *is* a line.

> >>Ken:
> The cartoonish elements represent the innocent faith that children
> have in their world and the adults that protect them. No matter how
> outlandishly frightening my troubles seem the adults will help me 
> sort them out. They also symbolize the many cruel things that      
> children do and say to each other during the course of growing up. 
> And of course some of them are just comic relief. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Which may be why the cartoon element fades as the books go along.  
But I don't think the cartoon was ever supposed to be the actual 
state of the Potterverse world.  Harry, with his innocent faith, 
*saw* things with a cartoonish clarity where bad people are just bad 
and don't love their families like good people do and don't feel 
pain like good people do.  And part of growing up is recognizing the 
cruel things you've done as a child and deciding to not make that 
sort of mistake again.  Because *all* people feel pain, just as much 
as you do.

Maybe that's what JKR has been trying to do?

> >>Marion:
> <snip>
> I'm convinced that this is the whole idea of the series. The books 
> are about racism and prejudice, right? That trying to keep your    
> blood or your culture 'pure' is futile and plain *wrong*. And     
> every HP fan would agree with this: they are certainly not racist! 
> All the little ten-year old HP fans that I have spoken to would    
> love to be Sorted into Gryffindor so they could bravely fight those
> nasty racist Slytherins.
> Ah.
> <massive snippage>

Betsy Hp:
Exactly!  I think this is a massive part of what JKR is trying to 
do.  Otherwise why not just have Slytherin *be* evil?  We've all 
read stories, especially childrens' stories where the bad guys are 
*unquestionably* evil.  Why does JKR go and muddy the waters?  Why 
not have *all* the evil wizards be unquestionably Slytherins?  Why 
show Draco agonizing over his task and trapped by his love for his 
family?  (Gosh, why have him deal with the pain and humiliation Fake!
Moody put him through with such dignity?)  Could she be driving 
towards another point?

Betsy Hp