Slytherins (was Re: /Hurt/comfort/Elkins post about Draco

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 156408

Steve/bboyminn:
> 
> I'm favoring James (jamess) view on this. I think Wynnleaf has
> misinterpreted that scene. The point Dumbledore is making is not that
> Slytherin is bad, but that Harry has chosen to be selfless rather than
> self-serving. He has chosen to serve others rather than serve his own
> ambitions of status and wealth. 

wynnleaf
But Harry didn't say "not Slytherin," because he wanted to serve
others or because he had a problem with ambition.  He said "not
Slytherin," because he didn't want to be in Draco's house, and he
didn't want to be in the house that he'd been told (incorrectly) had
produced all of the Dark wizards.  In a way, his desire to avoid
Slytherin house was somewhat self-serving in itself.

Steve/bboyminn
> Now we are all selfserving and ambitious to some extent, as is Harry,
> and that is not a bad thing. This has been pointed out before, that
> none of the Slytherin characteristics are bad in and of themselves.
> 
> Further, we see a very warped view of Slytherin in only seeing it from
> the view of Draco and the people closely associated with him. The
> truth is we can't judge /most/ Slytherins because we don't get to see
> /most/ Slytherins. 

wynnleaf
While I agree with this, I'd just like to reiterate that Harry wasn't
trying to stay out of Slytherin because of any problems he had with
personal ambition.  He was avoiding a particular rude and arrogant kid
(Draco) and he didn't want to be in what he viewed as the house of
Voldemort.  Later, in COS, he didn't like thinking that the Hat wanted
to put him in Slytherin -- not because of the Hat's stated
characteristics of the house, but once again, because he didn't want
to be associated with Dark Wizards, and because he didn't like the
"heir of Slytherin" possibilities.

Steve/bboyminn
> To the idea that Slytherins are uniformly depicted as 'ugly', in
> return I must ask 'By who?'. They are depicted that way by rivals. 

wynnleaf
At the first sorting, Harry thinks that all the Slytherins look like
an "unpleasant lot."  On the train, Crabb and Goyle are described as
"thick set" and looking "extremely mean."  Crabb has long gorilla like
arms.  Marcus Flint is described as looking like "he had some troll
blood in him."  Pansy is a "hard-faced Slytherin girl," with a "face
like a pug."  Millicent Bulstrode is described a square build, heavy
jaw, no "pixie."  Theodore Nott is "weedy looking" and "stringy."  
Malfoys and Blacks are described very well indeed.  And Zabini gets a
nice description.  But as far as the students go, Zabini is the only
one besides Draco who is described in physically neutral or pleasing
terms.  Head of House Snape is described as physically unattractive. 
Also, the one Slytherin headmaster Phineas Nigelas Black is I *think*
described in physically unattractive terms -- but I can't find it. 
And last, the Bloody Baron is described as far more awful looking than
the other ghosts.

In general, it's the narration that uses these descriptions.  Although
I realize that it's narration that's primarily from Harry's point of
view, I tend to think the purpose is to continue to reinforce within
the reader's mind that Slytherins are nasty as a whole.  If you're a
Slytherin, you're just nasty in general -- including looks.

Steve/bboyminn
For
> example, when Cedric Diggory was a rival to Gryffindor, he was
> depicted as a useless airhead pretty boy. Once Gryffindor got to know
> him, and found out he was fair minded, the preception by our
> point-of-view and point-of-view influencing characters changed for the
> better.
> 
> If Harry and friends meet Slytherins who show more positive character
> and characteristics, they will probably have a more positive view of
them.

wynnleaf
Yes, we may very well see Slytherins described in more attractive
terms in Book 7, if some of them end up helping the side of the Order.
   Basically, I see the physical descriptions as a device to make us
see characters in good or bad terms (well, not necessarily so cut and
dried, but you get the idea I hope).  The question is whether or not
JKR will continue to influence the reader to dislike Slytherins as a
group, or whether she will try to move the readers to view them
differently.

Steve/bboyminn
> Further, most of this is 'schoolboy' rivalry. The negative stereo type
> of Slytherin doesn't seem to carry over to the same extent into the
> Adult wizard world. Schoolboy rivalries are set aside for more
> practical aspects of everyday business life. 

wynnleaf
Well, we do get Hagrid willing to lump all of the death eaters into
Slytherin, even though he personally knows that's not true.

wynnleaf