The Unloved Son (was Re: Could I be wrong about Snape being evil?)

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 156655

  
Lupinlore 
    
<<It also goes well with a certain psychological view of the Snape-
<Harry- 
<Dumbledore triangle.  To wit, Snape is incredibly bitter because he 
<feels himself to be the unloved son in this scenario, while the 
father figure lavishes affection and concern on the younger and (in 
Snape's eyes) less worthy child. 

<Snape, in this scenario, repeatedly resists seeing Harry 
as "special" or in any way worthy of regard -- especially from 
Dumbledore, whose affection Snape desires.  Snape is eaten alive 
with perpetual envy in knowing that DD loves Harry more than he 
loves Severus.  Nothing Snapey-poo does seems to shake this regard.  
He saves the boy, DD loves Harry better.  He demonstrates that the 
boy isn't very good at potions.  DD loves Harry better.  He shows 
that the boy can't learn Occlumency.  DD loves Harry better.  He 
spies on the DEs.  DD loves Harry better. 

<In this scenario, one of DD's emotional mistakes is in mistaking 
the reason that Occlumency fails.  It wasn't because Snapey-poo 
couldn't get over his feelings about James, it was because he 
couldn't get over his feelings about HARRY.  Once again, the father 
figure has shown definitively that he loves Harry more than 
Severus.  The bitterness Snape shows when he tells Harry "I did not 
ask for the job" is classic.  Father has told him to help little 
brother out, and father doesn't want to hear any excuses, thank you 
very much -- even excuses about how difficult and dangerous a job it 
might be if Voldemort finds out that Snapey-poo is helping Harry 
resist his probes. 

<DD's position in all this is also classic.  He's a father with two 
sons, one of whom is very bitter toward the other.  He wants to help 
the situation but he doesn't know how and is crippled in thinking 
about it because of a very hard fact -- Severus is right.  DD really 
DOES love Harry more than he loves Severus.  If he tries to confront 
the situation directly he risks coming down to a very bitter moment, 
the moment when the older son flat asks "Do you love me as much as 
you love him?"  And then DD would either have to lie, which is 
something Snapey-poo would see through immediately and come away 
destroyed, or tell the truth, and destroy him anyway.  Best to sweep 
the whole thing under the rug and hope to God it never comes up. 
 

wynnleaf 
While I'm not so sure about the DD-as-horcrux idea, I have wondered 
if DD's death was necessary to complete a horcrux destruction. 

But whatever.... 

I have also been very interested in the "unloved son," or perhaps 
better "less-loved son," explanation of a DD/Harry/Snape triangle. 

It makes a lot of sense if you think that Snape may have had a poor 
relationship with Tobias Snape, a muggle.  Also, from Sirius' 
statements about the group of Slytherin's Snape supposedly ran with 
(they seemed to mostly be a good deal older than him), and his 
friendship with Lucius, also a good deal older, I think we can guess 
that Snape was looking for something even as a youngster first 
starting Hogwarts -- some sort of older sybling/mentor/parent, well 
*something* that could fill in for the kind of support he was 
lacking.  Even if Slughorn, his head of house, invited him into the 
Slug Club, I can't see Slughorn giving that sort of mentor or 
parenting support to anyone, much less Snape. 

Anyway, when Snape "returned" (DD's word) to DD, regreting his work 
as a DE, then DD would be almost certain to have taken on a role 
with Snape that would have affected him deeply.  First, DD chose to 
trust Snape, giving him the responsibility of spying on DD.  Then DD 
placed Snape in the further and greater position of responsibility 
of teaching at Hogwarts, and then as a head of house.  But as a 
newly turned spy, who taught Snape occlumency and trained him on 
what to do as a spy?  I'd think even someone with natural talent in 
occlumency still needs a teacher, and Snape must have had a master 
teacher.  Since I doubt Voldemort would want to teach a highly 
talented student the highest levels of occlumency, it wouldn't be 
surprising if Snape spent a lot of time one-on-one with DD, learning 
occlumency.  That probably took a high level of trust in order to 
learn at the level Snape uses it  -- that is, Snape would have had 
to trust DD quite a lot. 

But consider, a nineteen or twenty year old new spy.  Dumbledore 
would have to have spent a great deal of time with Snape guiding him 
through that whole spying business.  And then the young spy has no 
real father figure -- and now he's got this mentor who he has to 
trust with his life, not to mention let in his mind -- yeah, there 
almost *had* to be some very strong bonds formed.  Whether they were 
mentor, parental, or what, we don't know. 

> Tonks:
> I can see DD in the role of father figure to Snape, not so much to 
> Harry, but I will go along with it for the moment.  DD is the 
mentor 
> to both. 

wynnleaf
I agree that DD had a lot bigger likelihood of becoming a father 
figure to Snape than toward Harry.  I would think he'd have spent a 
lot more time around Snape in his late teens or early twenties, than 
DD spent around Harry.

Tonks
 > I don't think, regardless of what Scrimgeour says, that DD loves 
one 
> more than the other.  I think he loves Snape and Harry the same. 

wynnleaf
I agree, although he loves them differently.  I guess it partly 
relates to how one defines love.  But if you think in terms of what 
I think of as "acts of love," then DD has shown a great deal of 
loving actions toward Snape -- forgiveness, trust when others don't, 
raising him from dishonorable DE to the honorable post of teacher, 
hoping for the best out of Snape even when it doesn't happen (such 
as getting over his feelings in order to teach occlumency), etc.  
These, to me, are all actions of love and therefore I'd consider 
DD's love for Snape to be as great as his love for Harry -- but for 
very different reasons.  DD particularly loves Harry's capacity for 
love, and he shows his love toward Harry differently, too.

Tonks
He 
> also loves Draco. And on the tower he died for them all. 

wynnleaf
Good point.

Tonks
Now I guess 
> you could make a case for Snape "feeling" that DD loves Harry 
more, 
> which you have. But I give Snape more credit than that. I think 
> Snape is a mature man, who is secure with his position with DD. I 
> think that Snape hates Harry, because DD loves Harry more than his 
> own live.  And Snape loves DD too much to see him give his live 
for 
> Harry.  Snape does not want DD to give his life for Snape's soul 
> either. Snape would rather die for DD, than to have DD die for him.

wynnleaf
I've seen some fan fic writers do an excellent job at writing Snape 
from the perspective of sybling rivalry hatred for Harry.  It 
primarily seems to work if Snape is portrayed as especially 
emotionally immature.  This works well, until Snape has to be 
portrayed in his ongoing work as a spy, having to make difficult 
decisions, having to stay very focused and keep emotions in check, 
etc.  At that point, that degree of immaturity no longer seems to 
fit the character.  

So I tend to think that there's a part of Snape's hatred of Harry 
that's bound up in his feelings toward Dumbledore.  But I think it's 
only one aspect of his feelings toward Harry.  I think Snape would 
almost have to see Dumbledore in at least a partially parental way.  
But until HBP, Dumbledore was not really spending much time at all 
with Harry.  While Snape may have felt a jealousy toward the way 
Dumbledore (in Snape's opinion) might let Harry get by with all 
sorts of rule breaking, there really wasn't any *relationship* to be 
particularly jealous over.  It wasn't until HBP that DD and Harry 
visited with each other more than a few times per year.  Yet in HBP, 
we actually see less overt hatred of Snape toward Harry -- not 
including actions surrounding the very high stress scenes of 
Sectumsempra and Flight of the Prince, when Snape's anger toward 
Harry is understandable even without his hatred.

wynnleaf --