Polyjuice potion/Why did Snape take the UV?/Hermione's Parents

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 156844


> Ken:
> 
> I know that you keep *saying* that the two writings are identical 
but
> neither here nor in the previous message that you refer to do I see
> any *proof* of this. I agree that you are drawing the conclusion 
that
> the narrator intends, I just don't know whether that conclusion is 
a 
> red herring.

Magpie:
I just don't think these challenges are supported by the book.  This 
isn't a true-life investigation, it's a plot point in a re-cognition 
mystery.  All the clues we have point to Snape being the HBP.  The 
challenges to that don't come from the book, they come from standing 
outside the text in the real world and coming up with stuff from 
there--maybe the handwriting is only similar, not the same, maybe 
it's not Snape, Harry *must* recognize the handwriting of teen!Snape 
immediately (no one's handwriting is the same at 16 as it is at 38) 
or else it's a red-herring.  It's not showing me any evidence in the 
book it's not Snape, it's just coming up with outside reasons to not 
accept the evidence that is there for Snape.  

Which would be fine if the book wasn't finished and we were just 
keeping our options open, but what we're talking about is completely 
unpicking the entire plot of the HBP.  It turns the whole HBP story 
into a complete waste of time to be overturned in the next book.

Ken:
> Oh, I agree that this would kill that irony. It  occurs to me that 
if 
> a writer wanted to fool a reader like Carol her best bet would be
> to set out a delicious plate of irony and then cruelly knock it to 
the floor
> in book 7 ;-)

Magpie:
I don't think JKR is out to fool people above serving up a good 
story, and the irony is the part that's the good story. The 
Harry/Snape relationship is central to canon, and Harry's 
befriending and defending teen!Snape is more than just a funny 
irony, it goes straight to the heart of that relationship.  As I 
said above, what she would be knocking to the floor in Book 7 
wouldn't just be a passing bit of irony that Snape fans liked, but 
the whole plot thread of HBP.  It would be like deciding to tell us 
in Book V that Moody wasn't really Barty Crouch.  The mystery would 
get solved twice. The first, more satisfying answer, would be 
replaced by one that's only good point seems to be that it's 
different and more complicated, which imo is something that is only 
appealing in fandom.  (Which is why only in fandom would anyone 
consider RAB being Regulus Black to be "too obvious" and prefer it 
to be a random person.) 

>a_svirn:
I don't believe, however, that Snape knew about Draco's mission. It
looks to me as though he skilfully drilled both sisters in order to
garner as much information as possible.

Nikkalmati:
Agreed.

Magpie:
This is one of these things that I just can't get my mind around.  
How is Snape in any way skillfully getting information about Draco's 
task through this vow?  From Spinner's End:

*  *  *

"The Dark Lord has forbidden me to speak of it," Narcissa continued, 
her eyes still closed.  "He wishes none to know of the plan.  It 
is...very secret.  But--"

"If he has forbidden it, you ought not to speak," said Snape at 
once.  "The Dark Lord's word is law."

[...]

"There" [Bellatrix] said triumphantly to her sister. "Even Snape 
says so: you were told not to talk, so hold your silence!"

But Snape had got to his feet and strode to the small window, peered 
through the curtains at the deserted street, then closed them again 
with a jerk. He turned round to face Narcissa, frowning.

"It so happens that I know of the plan," he said in a low voice.  "I 
am one of the few the Dark Lord has told..."

And later:

"He intends me to do it in the end, I think.  But the is determined 
that Draco should try first.  You see, in the unlikely event that 
Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little 
longer, fulfilling my useful role as spy."

*  *  *

This is all before Snape takes the vow.  We've got Snape actually 
stopping Narcissa from just telling him what the task is without the 
suicidal vow--that's the second time she's tried to do it. The first 
time Bellatrix stopped her.  I can understanding the thinking that 
Snape feels he has to say not to talk if Voldemort told her not to 
because it shows loyalty to Voldemort, but is that really better 
than taking the UV he does?  The woman doesn't need to be skillfully 
pumped for information, she's come to give it to him.  Snape, if 
anything, just needs to find a skillful way to allow her to tell it 
to him without looking too eager to Bellatrix.  Actually, it really 
doesn't matter if he looks too eager to Bellatrix, because looking 
eager is exactly in character for a DE, whose whole life would 
revolve around jockeying for position close to Voldemort and trying 
to find out stuff like this.

Snape then converses confidently about Draco's task (which I never 
doubted was to kill DD myself--it's heavily hinted already).  Is he 
just faking, taking a gamble that whatever his task is it stands to 
reason all these things would apply to it?  He could be, but I think 
JKR was writing Snape fishing for information the scene would read 
as a fishing for information scene.  Instead Snape is the one in 
control, cutting people off, and telling us Voldemort's feelings for 
Lucius.  

Why do I think he took the UV?  I honestly don't.  I don't think I 
can until it's explained to me in the next book. And I think that 
whatever the reason is it will mean that Snape knew what vow he was 
taking and also that Dumbledore knew Snape took the vow.  I think 
the only unknown factor for these two in HBP was Draco's Vanishing 
Cabinet--which fits well with the themes of the series.

Eric Oppen:
Or Hermione's sister might be _such_ a handful for whatever reason 
("special needs," incorrigible juvenile delinquent, what-have-you) 
that Herm's parents are just as happy to have her out of the line of 
fire so that they can deal with their other girl.

Magpie:
Hermione doesn't have a sister.  JKR had planned to give her one, 
but never did.  As to her parents, it's always been suggested it's 
Hermione's choice to be where she is at holidays.  Her parents 
usually seem to plan vacations when she comes home, like when she 
went to France.  In OotP they plan a ski vacation and Hermione 
cancels at the last minute.  They don't seem to have any choice in 
the matter.

-m