OFH SNAPE was: Script from JKR's reading/ About Snape and Dumbledore

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 156905



Betsy Hp:
I went back and reread your post, Snow, and I don't see where you 
suggest that Snape doesn't allow Harry to be killed because his 
conscience won't allow it. Of course I may well be missing 
something. <g>

Snow:

Oh thanks for pointing this out! I was referring to the very first 
line where Snape doesn't want Harry dead. 

Betsy Hp:
Hmm, but that's not what Julie is saying in her option (d). She's 
saying that no matter how useless Snape thinks Harry might be, no 
matter how much Snape might dislike Harry, he would never stand by 
and let a child, *any* child, die. Because, contrary to Harry's 
beliefs, Snape is not a monster. Dumbledore's watching eye, the 
need to kill Voldemort need not apply. (At least, that's how *I* 
interperted option (d). Please correct me if I'm wrong, Julie. <g>)

Snow:

I guess if it is in Snape's best interest he would, especially if it 
earned him an Order of Merlin for the act :) 

Betsy Hp:
The second remark is easy (and I'll include it just for clarity's 
sake <g>).

"Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape 
couldn't bear being in your father's debt....I do believe he worked 
so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him 
and your father even. Then he could go back to hating your father's 
memory in peace...." [SS scholastic paperback p.300]

(Though I will point out that there's nothing suggestive in 
Dumbledore's words of a formulaic and predictable kind of magic 
being worked. It all seems like something Dumbledore sees Snape 
doing to himself rather than a magical life-debt at work.)

Snow:

Again open to interpretation. Dumbledore says he `believes' that this 
is why Snape acted in such a manner
Dumbledore also stated that an 
old man makes mistakes therefore I would conclude that you believe 
everything that Dumbledore has said and Nagini is definitely a 
Horcrux >g<

Betsy Hp:

The first remark ("Snape hated your father, but he didn't want him 
dead." [quoting Julie]) was harder to find. I *think* Julie may 
have been referring to this conversation in HBP:

[Harry speaking:] "He hated my dad like he hated Sirius! Haven't 
you noticed, Professor, how the people Snape hates tend to end up 
dead?"
[Dumbledore's response:] "You have no idea of the remorse Professor 
Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interperted the 
prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life 
and the reason that he returned --" [HBP scholastic hardback p.549]

Snow:

As I was looking up possible quotes I also ran across this one but 
dismissed it because remorse for what Snape realized what he had done 
is not the same as not wanting James dead. Ask anyone who believes in 
LOLLIPOPS.  Both James and Lily died because of `his' information. 

Betsy Hp:
But right at the moment Harry is pushing Dumbledore on Snape, is 
questioning how *far* Snape can be trusted, especially given his 
past behavior, Dumbledore says this:

"I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." [ibid] 

I just don't see much wiggle room in that statement. Dumbledore 
doesn't say "I know Severus Snape and I trust him to behave in a 
predictable fashion" or "When it comes to taking down Voldemort, 
Snape is someone I trust". No, Dumbledore trusts Severus Snape 
*completely*. There's no caveat to that statement. And I think 
Dumbledore refused to include a caveat because he doesn't actually 
have one when it comes to trusting Snape.
 
Snow:

Dumbledore surely trusts Snape to the degree that he has stated but 
why does he trust Snape completely is the answer I was approaching. 
Dumbledore trusts Snape completely because he realizes that no matter 
what; Snape has to save Harry to save himself. Snape is tied into the 
cause, not because he wants to be but because he has to be to protect 
his own best interest. 

Betsy Hp:
I just don't see it. I really don't see Snape doing everything he's 
doing for a shiny Ministry medal. You claim that Snape is "drooling 
intently" after the Order of Merlin. What actually occurs is this:

"Shocking business...shocking...miracle none of them died...never 
heard the like...by thunder, it was lucky you were there, Snape...."
"Thank you, Minister."
"Order of Merlin, Second Class, I'd say. First Class, if I can 
wrangle it!"
"Thank you very much indeed, Minister." [PoA scholastic hardback 
p.386]

So, where's the drooling? Snape's thank you for the Order doesn't 
even get an exclamation point. Sure, Snape seems pleased, what with 
the "very much indeed", but *drooling*? The culmination of all his 
hopes and the very reason he became a spy on Voldemort (on the verge 
of winning, no follower of Geneva Conventions when he's angry at 
someone Voldemort)? I just don't see it. Snape is pleased. He's 
not jumping up and down oh so very happy. In fact he doesn't speak 
of the Order of Merlin again.

[An aside: Actually, he segues very quickly into his old "Harry 
should be suspended" song and dance. Why does Snape keep singing 
that old tune, I wonder?]

Snow:

I do bow to your accusation and you are correct that this verb usage 
was an assumption derived (by myself) as an opposite reaction to 
Snape finding that he would not be receiving the Order. 

I will however submit for your scrutiny a quote from Dumbledore 
during this same scene that tells me that Dumbledore still questions 
Snape:

POA pg 390 "I suppose he's told you the same fairy tale he's planted 
in Potter's mind?" spat (look at this spat) Snape. "Something about a 
rat, and Pettigrew being alive-"

"That, indeed, is Black's story," said Dumbledore, surveying Snape 
closely through his half-moon spectacles. 

Oh yeah, Dumbledore is doing his Legilimence on Snape. This is the 
person that he supposedly trusts emphatically but he still needs to 
keep a check on him, why? 

Betsy Hp:
But the Order of Merlin is *never* mentioned. What Snape is 
screaming about is Sirius getting away and Harry getting away with 
helping the escape. Dumbledore does say Snape has suffered a severe 
disappointment but why would we assume it has anything to do with 
the Order of Merlin? Especially since we knew how much Snape 
*hated* Sirius and was thrilled with the idea of Sirius getting what 
he had coming. Sirius getting away seems enough disappointment to 
be going on with, IMO.

Honestly, with all we've learned about Snape and the Marauders it 
makes *so* much sense that Snape reverts to a child screaming about 
the unfairness of life at this point. I honestly doubt Snape had a 
thought about the lost Order of Merlin. Later it may have been an 
insult on top of injury, but it certainly doesn't seem the 
underlying cause of his rage at this point, since he never, never 
mentions it. 

*Lupin* mentions it. Actually, he's the one to come up with and 
float that particular theory.

"Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying to 
save your lives." He sighed. "That was the final straw for 
Severus. I think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard." 
[PoA scholastic hardback p.423]

But are we really supposed to take Lupin's view as a keen insight 
into one Severus Snape? Lupin lies. He conceals and he 
misdirects. I don't know that he does it with evil intention, but 
he certainly does it. And as easily as breathing, I think. If he 
doesn't know, he'll happily make it up. Especially if it keeps 
people from asking uncomfortable questions. "Why does Snape hate 
you so, Professor Lupin?" 

If there's one thing I think *doesn't* drive Snape, it's getting an 
Order of Merlin. I think Snape could care less.

Snow:

You do put a decent argument forward but inasmuch as you have argued 
against Snape being out for himself you claimed Lupin to be a liar as 
evidence. How is it you realize this is a fact, Pippin will be very 
interested as much as myself I am sure ;) 

Betsy Hp, enjoying talking about Snape again since it's been awhile 
for me <g>

Snow-who hasn't been seen much in the past year but enjoys when the 
list gets involved in good discussion. If we all agree with each 
other where would that take us