OFH SNAPE was: Script from JKR's reading/ About Snape and Dumbledore

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 156931

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip of quote>
> > (Though I will point out that there's nothing suggestive in 
> > Dumbledore's words of a formulaic and predictable kind of magic 
> > being worked. It all seems like something Dumbledore sees Snape 
> > doing to himself rather than a magical life-debt at work.)

> >>Snow:
> Again open to interpretation. Dumbledore says he `believes' that   
> this is why Snape acted in such a manner


Betsy Hp:
But isn't this what we're talking about?  How *Dumbledore* sees 
Snape?  How much and why Dumbledore trusts him?

> >>Snow:
> Dumbledore also stated that an old man makes mistakes therefore I 
> would conclude that you believe everything that Dumbledore has    
> said and Nagini is definitely a Horcrux >g<

Betsy Hp:
Ah, but I do believe that Dumbledore is *honest* about what he 
says.  If he says he believes something is so, then that is what he 
believes.  He might be mistaken, but that's his honest (though 
perhaps not complete, the sly fox <g>) assesment.
 
> >>Snow:
> Dumbledore surely trusts Snape to the degree that he has stated    
> but why does he trust Snape completely is the answer I was        
> approaching. Dumbledore trusts Snape completely because he         
> realizes that no matter what; Snape has to save Harry to save      
> himself. Snape is tied into the cause, not because he wants to be 
> but because he has to be to protect his own best interest.

Betsy Hp:
How do you get that out of "completely"?  If Snape doesn't kill 
Harry *only* because Harry is fated to kill Voldemort shouldn't 
Dumbledore tell Harry that "When it comes to your safety, I trust 
Severus Snape" or something along those lines? 

I think it can be argued (though I'd disagree with it <g>) that 
Snape should *not* be trusted completely.  But Dumbledore is pretty 
clear in stating that he *does* trust Snape that much.  There's 
nothing in the texts that suggest to me that Dumbledore sees Snape 
as a Death Eater on a leash.

> >>Snow:
> <snip>
> I will however submit for your scrutiny a quote from Dumbledore 
> during this same scene that tells me that Dumbledore still        
> questions Snape:
> 
> POA pg 390 "I suppose he's told you the same fairy tale he's      
> planted in Potter's mind?" spat (look at this spat)               
> Snape. "Something about a rat, and Pettigrew being alive-"
> "That, indeed, is Black's story," said Dumbledore, surveying Snape 
> closely through his half-moon spectacles. 
> 
> Oh yeah, Dumbledore is doing his Legilimence on Snape. This is the 
> person that he supposedly trusts emphatically but he still needs   
> to keep a check on him, why? 

Betsy Hp:
As Carol points out, Dumbledore also keeps a similarly close check 
on Harry at times.  Especially, I think, when Harry's emotions are 
running high.  Could Dumbledore be so very alert (I'm not sure I'm 
ready to say Legilimency is going on here) about Snape's state 
because he's a bit *worried* about him?  Dumbledore *must* have some 
idea of the bad blood between Snape and the Marauders.  I think he's 
aware that the loss of Black, the *innocence* of Black is going to 
hit Snape hard.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > *Lupin* mentions it. Actually, he's the one to come up with and 
> > float that particular theory.
> > <snip of quote>
> > But are we really supposed to take Lupin's view as a keen       
> > insight into one Severus Snape? Lupin lies. He conceals and he 
> > misdirects. I don't know that he does it with evil intention,    
> > but he certainly does it. And as easily as breathing, I think.   
> > If he doesn't know, he'll happily make it up. Especially if it   
> > keeps people from asking uncomfortable questions. "Why does     
> > Snape hate you so, Professor Lupin?" 
> > If there's one thing I think *doesn't* drive Snape, it's getting 
> > an Order of Merlin. I think Snape could care less.

> >>Snow:
> You do put a decent argument forward but inasmuch as you have      
> argued against Snape being out for himself you claimed Lupin to be 
> a liar as evidence. How is it you realize this is a fact, Pippin   
> will be very interested as much as myself I am sure ;)

Betsy Hp:
Thanks! <g>  But I'm not actually using Lupin's lying as evidence.  
I'm trying to *cut down* the only evidence suggesting Snape was hurt 
of the loss of the Order of Merlin by questioning the veracity of 
the only character to raise that possibility.  (I'm pretty sure 
Pippin is well aware of the many, many times Lupin has obfuscated a 
few facts in his polite, befuddled, sort of way. <g>) 

> >>Renee:
> <snip>
> What if Lupin merely wants to avoid suggesting that Harry's rescue 
> of Sirius has played an indirect role in his resignation? Harry's 
> despondent enough at the time, thinking he has accomplished       
> nothing. Also, Lupin knows he deserves to leave anyway, whatever   
> Snape's motivation is. So he comes up with the - admittedly lame - 
> Order of Merlin explanation. Note that he doesn't present it as
> a fact, but as an opinion.
> And whether Harry buys it or not, he doesn't draw any conclusions 
> from it, and the Order of Merlin is never brought up again in     
> connection with Snape. Harry simply doesn't care about it and it's 
> not important. If Lupin is lying here, it's a white lie.

Betsy Hp:
Yeeaahh... I tend to agree with you. Only...  It does make Snape out 
to be petty and childish doesn't it?  "Meh, he made me lose my 
precious reward so I'll snitch on him and make him lose his job. 
Nyah."  I see a bit of the classic passive-aggressive stuff Lupin is 
so very, very good at going on here.  (Calling Snape "Severus" is 
another example.)

I'm really not sure I'd go so far as Pippin and label Lupin ESE. 
(Though I'll admit that a massive reason for that is what JKR has 
said about him in her interviews.  And boy that's a weak place to 
hang a theory.  Look how her remarks on Draco led everyone astray.)

I did a massive post on Lupin a while back, and this was my 
conclusion:

"Lupin is a bundle of contradictions. It's easy to see how his 
behavior can seem suspicious enough to grant him the ESE moniker. 
It's also easy to see why he's considered such a wonderful person. 
Frankly, I think Lupin lacks the sort of initiative required to 
become ESE. And I also believe his pleasant passivity hides a wealth 
of pain. Snape referred to him as weak, and he is. (As he'd admit to 
you, himself.) But he doesn't have to be. We've seen Lupin take 
action and he's good at it, a natural leader. He is a good man. Now 
if only he'd *do* something."

Which, IMO, is a pretty wishy-washy conclusion. <g> (The entire post 
is here, for those who are interested.  Be warned, it's long.)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/149223

But yeah, that Lupin is the *only* character to suggest Snape was 
really *that* interested in an Order of Merlin is enough to help me 
conclude the exact opposite is probably true.  (I also seriously 
doubt Snape gave a rat's ass about James's quidditch skills. <g>)

Betsy Hp