OFH SNAPE was: Script from JKR's reading/ About Snape and Dumbledore

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 157021

> > wynnleaf
> > While it's possible that you're correct, I have also seen very 
> > similar behavior play out in real life between fathers and sons -
- 
> > where the father understands his son quite thoroughly and the 
son 
> > knows it.  
> 
> PJ:
> When did Dumbledore and Snape become as close as father and son 
> though?  We have absolutely *nothing* in canon to suggest there is 
> such a bond between them, or even that they "understand each other 
> quite thoroughly".  What canon says is that Dumbledore is Snape's 
> boss and before that, his headmaster... They're co-workers.

wynnleaf
I would not see Dumbledore and Snape in any kind of normal co-worker 
light.  First, Dumbledore has known Snape to one extent or another 
for over 20 years -- first as a child, then an adolescent, then as 
an adult.  He has figured in Snape's life as headmaster, spy-master, 
and employer.  But he has evidently also been Snape's confidant as 
regards why he left Voldemort.  Apparently, he was Snape's only 
confidant regarding that.  Snape was willing to voice whatever 
personal stresses and concerns he felt in the forest conversation 
that Hagrid overheard.  Despite others characterizing Snape's hatred 
of James as some sort of schoolboy grudge, Dumbledore speaks of it 
as a "wound too deep for healing."  Dumbledore is not just an 
employer; he seems to know personal things about Snape that no one 
else knows.

Dumbledore offered Snape a lot more than forgiveness and a "second 
chance."  He placed great trust in Snape and gave the ex-Death Eater 
a position of honor (teacher and Head of House) at a very young 
age.  This is not something you do for someone you don't know very 
well.  

Dumbledore is the person Snape went to when he wanted to leave 
Voldemort.  Snape was willing to reveal things to Dumbledore that no 
one else knows.  Lupin may think Snape hates James over petty 
issues, but Dumbledore knows something more about the true nature of 
those "wounds," enough to characterize them as much more serious 
than even James friends realize.  Snape is the only staff member we 
get to see actually disagreeing with or arguing with Dumbledore.  He 
seems to feel comfortable to do this, and Dumbledore certainly puts 
up with a lot from Snape -- both in his willingness to argue with 
Dumbledore, and in his treatment of his students.  

We can see in his response to fake-Moody's taunts during the night 
conversation in GOF, that Dumbledore's trust is very important to 
Snape.  

And then there's the teasing.  At the beginning of COS, Dumbledore 
actually agrees with Snape that Harry and Ron's actions with the car 
could merit expulsion, but Dumbledore gives them another chance 
saying if it happens *again* they'd risk being expelled.  Then he 
draws Snape away to taste the custard...  At the Christmas feast, 
Snape's cracker has a vulture hat in it, but as I recall (I'll have 
to look this up later) Snape doesn't *hand* it to Dumbledore or 
throw it out, or even just put it down, but gently pushes it toward 
Dumbledore, who gives him his own hat.  When I picture it, that just 
doesn't have the "feel" of Snape disliking Dumbledore.  

At the end of POA, I actually don't think that Dumbledore is simply 
teasing Snape about Harry and Hermione not being able to be in two 
places at once.  I think he *was* teasing some, but I have a feeling 
that the teachers knew about Hermione having the time-turner 
(wouldn't they have to, as she was using it for her classes?) and if 
I recall correctly, time-turners come via the Ministry.  I think 
Dumbledore was trying to subtly say, "Severus, think what you're 
saying right here in front of Fudge.  We can't have this discussion 
right now in front of him, because I've let these students use a 
time-turner to rescue Sirius."  I think that's why Snape backs down, 
because he realizes that Dumbledore (who he already suspected was 
believing Black's story) had authorized Harry and Hermione to use 
the time-turner to get Sirius out.  Snape is loyal to DD, regardless 
of what he thought of Sirius, and wouldn't continue to press the 
issue in front of Fudge, once he clued into what had happened.

Anyway, that's always been my read on that comment, primarily 
because I was always fairly sure that all of her teachers would have 
been aware of Hermione having a time-turner.

And then there's Dumbledore's comment to Fudge that Snape had just 
suffered a severe disappointment.  DD is amused.  Why?  I think 
because he's quite used to Snape's periodic explosions and knows how 
to weather them.

> Seen in that light would you consider a co-worker laughing at you 
> during a highly stressful and emotional time to be nothing more 
> than "gentle teasing" or would it upset you even further?  Canon 
> shows that Snape finds it upsetting. 

wynnleaf
Oh, I agree that Snape was upset by it.  But actually Dumbledore is 
like that to lots of people, not just Snape.  Other characters get 
upset around Dumbledore and he makes humorous little comments.  
Snape may find it upsetting, but it doesn't stop him from going to 
Dumbledore when he needs the right person to share problems and 
concerns, or make a confession.

> PJ:
> I don't see why it would follow at all.  (DDM=Liking Dumbledore)  
> You can agree with someone's platform/goals without liking the 
> person himself.  

wynnleaf
If Snape is DDM, the commitment that he has shown to following 
Dumbledore's direction goes far, far beyond agreeing with his 
platform and goals.  Wow, so far beyond it hardly bears the 
comparison.  Snape risks his life continually based on what 
Dumbledore thinks is the right move to make.  Dumbledore thought 
Snape should return to Voldemort as a spy and Snape did it, no 
questions asked.  If Snape AK'd Dumbledore against his own wishes 
(what was the "please" for, unless Snape didn't want to do it? -- 
assuming DDM of course), then he was once again taking on a huge 
amount of risk, etc. based on Dumbledore's assessment of what needed 
to be done.  But consider this, if Snape is DDM, then the "please, 
Severus" means that Snape *didn't* want to AK Dumbledore.  And that 
means he was willing to die in order to not AK him.  That's so, so 
much more than agreeing with Dumbledore's "platform/goals."  That 
speaks much more of *personal* motivation -- commitment to a person.

wynnleaf, who didn't mean, by the way, that the Dumbledore and Snape 
relationship is a father/son type, but simply that close 
relationships often allow for gentle teasing when someone is very 
well trusted.