Lupin vs Snape (was Lupin and "Severus")

[Renee]

No: HPFGUIDX 157022

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...>
wrote:
>
>Carol:
> > In OOP, he [=Lupin] tells Harry that "Snape" (not "severus") is a
"superb
> Occlumens" and that it's important for Harry to overcome his dislike
> of Snape and learn to protect himself (OoP am. ed. 527). Contrast his
> attitude with that of Black, who gives Harry the two-way mirror in
> case Snape gives him a hard time--a most unhelpful gesture since Harry
>  already distrusts Snape, which interferes with the lessons almost as
> much as Harry's desire to finish his dream does.
> 
> I think that Lupin really is attempting to be fair and objective, and
> certainly he doesn't hate Snape the way Sirius Black does--with a
> prejudice deepened by the knowledge that Snape was once a Death Eater.

Renee:
Yes, it could be Lupin tries to be objective, especially when he's
discussing Snape with Harry (and when it's in Harry's best interest
not to let his dislike of Snape get the better of him), but IMO you
can try to be objective about someone while still disliking them on a
personal level. For someone as distanced and detached as Lupin often
shows himself to be, this wouldn't be impossible (as it would be for
Sirius). 

> > > > >>Renee:
> > > <snip>
> > > What if Lupin merely wants to avoid suggesting that Harry's rescue
> > > of Sirius has played an indirect role in his resignation? Harry's
> > If Lupin is lying here, it's a white lie.     

Pippin:
If it's Lupin's intention to smear Snape's character then it's hardly
a white lie. Lupin himself admits that that he did put children
in danger and the parents have a point about not wanting him to
teach, but he imputes no such benign intention to Snape. 


Renee:
My point was, that replacing one of Snape's motivations (getting back
at the one Marauder who he can hurt at that point) by another,
probably fake one (being hit hard by the loss of the OoM), in order to
avoid bringing up Sirius, was the white lie. Leaving out Snape's other
possible motivation (protecting the students) could be seen as lying
by omission - but only if Lupin genuinely believes that Snape is
acting out of responsibility. It's very well possible Lupin doesn't
believe anything of the kind and only sees the revenge part. 

Though even if he does, he's not smearing Snape's character if revenge
*was* Snape's primary motive - as I personally believe, and as I'm
convinced Lupin believes as well. It's only when you believe revenge
played no role for Snape that Lupin's words turn into smearing Snape's
character. More or less, that is. His actual wording is quite mild.
Nor does Harry seize the opportunity to vent his anger at Snape, which
to me suggests that Lupin's remark does not invite such a reaction.

There's another possibility yet: Lupin has managed to convince himself
Snape was only out for revenge. Lupin's very good at self-deception.
He told himself Sirius was getting into Hogwarts using Dark Magic, and
no doubt he also convinced himself it was better for Tonks to break up
with her. 

Pippin:
Watching the BBC's version of Pride and Prejudice the other
day, I noted that what the characters say as they try
to dismiss their concerns about Wickham makes them sound
very much like some real life Lupin supporters I've heard.  

Renee:
Austens characters, notably Elizabeth Bennett - though not Lydia, of
course - have doubts about Wickham even before they find out what kind
of man he really is; the situation in the HP series is different. The
only person who voices any concerns about Lupin's personality *in the
series* is Snape (I refuse to count Umbridge) - and once he knows
Lupin wasn't helping Sirius to get into Hogwarts, all he does is
calling Tonks's werewolf!Lupin Patronus weak. And I wouldn't call
Snape a reliable witness when it comes to giving testimony about the
Marauders. Any other doubts about Lupin are voiced by *readers*, not
by the HP characters. So the situation can't really be compared to the
one in Pride and Prejudice.  

I can't help noticing that the doubts seem to come predominantly from
readers who strongly favour Snape (though, to be fair, not all of them
have doubts about Lupin) and seem to resent the fact that Lupin subtly
needles him on several occasion, makes fun of him in the Boggart
lesson, calls him a fool in the Shrieking Shack and speaks harshly of
him when he hears Snape has killed Dumbledore. But Snape himself is
still not above suspicion at this point. We may yet find out in Book 7
that Lupin hasn't been nearly harsh enough about Snape. 


> Renee:
> This lack of initiative is one of the three main reasons I don't
> believe in ESE!Lupin either, the other two being JKR's statements that
> she loves him, and the token-good-werewolf thing.

Pippin:
She says she loves all her characters, including the bad guys.   

Renee:
She's mentioned him more than once when asked who were her favourites.
He was right there with the Trio, Gred&Forge, Dumbledore and Hagrid.

Pippin:
And
I don't believe that JKR approves of tokenism. It's a much stronger
message if Harry still believes that werewolves should have the
same rights that wizards do even after he learns that
Lupin has betrayed him.

Renee:
This looks like a typical case of `She doesn't' vs. `She does, too'.
And you may consider it a stronger message, but I would consider it a
rather implausible conclusion if Harry did, let alone people like
Molly, whose attitude represents that of the witch in the street. It's
not just Harry who needs to be convinced.