Lupin vs Snape (was Lupin and "Severus")
Sydney
sydpad at yahoo.com
Wed Aug 16 19:19:16 UTC 2006
No: HPFGUIDX 157035
> Renee:
> Austens characters, notably Elizabeth Bennett - though not Lydia, of
> course - have doubts about Wickham even before they find out what kind
> of man he really is;
Sydney:
Okay, this is reducing me to netspeak but OMG NO THEY DONT!! I had to
correct someone on this off-site because it seemed off-topic, but it
seems the error has been allowed to spread.
The ONLY person who expresses any doubt at all at Wickham's story is
Jane, who only does so because she wants to make everyone come out
good and so proposes some sort of misunderstanding. Every single other
person not personally involved with Darcy's circle-- INCLUDING
Elizabeth-- 100% takes Wickham's side and thinks he's a fabulous guy.
Quotage:
"The whole of what Elizabeth had already heard, his claims on Mr.
Darcy, and all that he had suffered from him, was now openly
acknowledged and publicly canvassed; and every body was pleased to
think how much they had always disliked Mr. Darcy before they had
known any thing of the matter.
Miss Bennet was the only creature who could suppose there might be any
extenuating circumstances in the case, unknown to the society of
Hertfordshire; her mild and steady candour always pleaded for
allowances, and urged the possibility of mistakes -- but by everybody
else Mr. Darcy was condemned as the worst of men."
Elizabeth continues to hold a very high opinion of Wickham, and her
first emotional reaction on finding out the truth is:
Jane Austen:
"But when this subject was succeeded by his account of Mr. Wickham,
when she read, with somewhat clearer attention, a relation of events,
which, if true, must overthrow every cherished opinion of his worth,
and which bore so alarming an affinity to his own history of himself,
her feelings were yet more acutely painful and more difficult of
definition. Astonishment, apprehension, and even horror, oppressed
her. She wished to discredit it entirely, repeatedly exclaiming,
``This must be false! This cannot be! This must be the grossest
falsehood!''"
Sydney:
"Every cherished opinion of his worth" is what is being overthrown.
There is not one line before this that Elizabeth expresses the
smallest doubt about Wickham's character. She is sorry that she
cannot marry him because he has no money. What finally decides her on
Darcy's story being true and Wickham's false has NOTHING to do with
her judgement of their characters and everything to do with a logical
alalysis of what is likely, logical, reasonable, and supported by the
evidence:
Jane Austen:
"...collecting herself as well as she could, she again began the
mortifying perusal of all that related to Wickham, and commanded
herself so far as to examine the meaning of every sentence.... What
Wickham had said of the living was fresh in her memory, and as she
recalled his very words, it was impossible not to feel that there was
gross duplicity on one side or the other; and, for a few moments, she
flattered herself that her wishes did not err...
.... again was she forced to hesitate. She put down the letter,
weighed every circumstance with what she meant to be impartiality --
deliberated on the probability of each statement -- but with little
success. On both sides it was only assertion. Again she read on. But
every line proved more clearly that the affair, which she had believed
it impossible that any contrivance could so represent as to render Mr.
Darcy's conduct in it less than infamous, was capable of a turn which
must make him entirely blameless throughout the whole....
.... After pausing on this point a considerable while, she once more
continued to read. But, alas! the story which followed, of his designs
on Miss Darcy, received some confirmation from what had passed between
Colonel Fitzwilliam and herself only the morning before; and at last
she was referred for the truth of every particular to Colonel
Fitzwilliam himself -- from whom she had previously received the
information of his near concern in all his cousin's affairs, and whose
character she had no reason to question. At one time she had almost
resolved on applying to him, but the idea was checked by the
awkwardness of the application, and at length wholly banished by the
conviction that Mr. Darcy would never have hazarded such a proposal if
he had not been well assured of his cousin's corroboration."
Sydney:
I'm sorry both for the massive quotage and the massive snippage, but
if people are going to use Pride and Prejudice to support their
arguments-- and you know who you are-- they should probably read the
book. And stop accusing those of us who have-- who in fact have
practically memorized it-- of being influenced by external sources.
Renee:
>the situation in the HP series is different. The
> only person who voices any concerns about Lupin's personality *in the
> series* is Snape (I refuse to count Umbridge) - and once he knows
> Lupin wasn't helping Sirius to get into Hogwarts, all he does is
> calling Tonks's werewolf!Lupin Patronus weak. And I wouldn't call
> Snape a reliable witness when it comes to giving testimony about the
> Marauders.
Sydney:
Really? As it turns out, Snape was right about James being arrogant
and strutting around the school. He was right about Lupin being weak
as well-- as Lupin himself agrees. And while Lupin wasn't actively
helping Sirius, he was (oh-so-Lupin!) passively helping, by
withholding the information about the Animagus transformation and,
even worse, the secret passages they both knew about.
Incidentally, having dislikable characters voice doubts about likable
ones that turn out to be accurate is a favorite strategy of Wilkie
Collins--- has JKR ever referred to him? As a Victorian
mystery-and-melodrama writer he seems like he'd be right up her street!
Renee:
> Any other doubts about Lupin are voiced by *readers*, not
> by the HP characters. So the situation can't really be compared to the
> one in Pride and Prejudice.
Sydney:
See above.. uh, yes it can. It totally can.
Renee:
> I can't help noticing that the doubts seem to come predominantly from
> readers who strongly favour Snape (though, to be fair, not all of them
> have doubts about Lupin)
Sydney:
Hee! Guilty as charged... although I like both Snape and Lupin! I do
see why the ESE! theories about him arise, because much more than the
Austen parallel, if Lupin was a character in an Agatha Christie story
I would be all over him as the prime suspect. The Nice Young Man who
is so helpful and hangs around the periphery of the story! It's
almost too obvious!
I don't think I can jump on that bandwagon, mostly, I have to admit,
on account of the Alchemical theory of the series' structure, which I
don't even really understand. But it WAS used to predict Lupin and
Tonks getting together, which for me came from Outer Space, so I have
a lot of respect for it. Under that scheme, Lupin stands for worldly
niceness, or something like that, in which case his
passive-nice-but-ineffectual thing fits perfectly.
-- Sydney, who wonders if the "Elizabeth liked Darcy and was
suspicious of Wickham all along" thing comes from the fine Laurence
Olivier/Greer Garson movie, which does take some liberties...
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