Is Lupin a Legilimens? Spell vs Skill

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 157304


"wynnleaf" <fairwynn at ...> wrote:
>
> I was reading through POA today and ran across yet 
> another reference to Lupin acting "as though he had 
> read Harry's mind..."  Regardless of whether or not 
> Lupin is good or bad, I am starting to think this is
> one we should be looking at more closely.
> 
> ...edited-excellent list of Legilimens/Occlumens examples...
> 
> ... Yet, if he's (Lupin) an occlumens/legilimens himself, 
> why didn't he volunteer or even mention it? In other words, 
> if Lupin is an occlumens or legilimens, he's keeping it a 
> secret.
> 
> If JKR was using those scenes (so similar to the Lupin 
> ones above) as examples of Snape doing legilimency, then 
> it seems highly likely that she's doing the same thing 
> with Lupin, but she just hasn't told us. 
> ...
> 
> Further, although some might think these could just be 
> red herrings, that also seems unlikely.  ... 
> 
> Last, although it is possible that an occlumens or 
> legilimens Lupin could be good, if Lupin *can* do this 
> kind of magic, it lends a lot of weight to ESE!Lupin.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> wynnleaf, ...

bboyminn:

Sorry for cutting so much of such an excellent post. 
I'm going to partly respond to this post and partly 
respond to the subject in general.

I agree, JKR is dropping giant sized hints that Lupin 
is certainly skilled in Legilimency, and possibly even 
skilled at Occlumency. But I don't think that makes 
Lupin 'Ever So Evil'. Though, I admit, I can't imagine 
how that is going to come into play in the last book.

I suspect that Legilimens and Occlumens are not like 
on-off switches where you either have it 100% or you 
don't have it at all. I suspect it is like any other 
skill; it comes in degrees. For example, we can all 
probably play soccer, but only certain people have a 
natural gift for it, and those people who have a 
natural gift have that gift in degrees. Some may have 
the gift to the degree that it allows them to excel 
at the high school level, other may excel as 
professionals.

So, most wizards and witches might have a casual level 
of skill, as an illustration, in the 5% to 15% range. 
That would hardly be more than good intuition. Good 
practitioners might be more in the 40% to 60% range. 
Snape could be in the 70% to 90% range. 

I suspect Lupin would be in the high-middle range. He 
certainly can do it, and seems to be able to do it 
consistently, but at the same time, he is able to 
recognise Snape superior skill in the matter. 

I think that Lupin didn't volunteer to teach Harry 
because, as I said, he recognised Snape's superior 
skill. But further, that Snape was at Hogwarts and Lupin 
wasn't. It would have looked suspicious if Lupin had shown 
up at the school to talk to Harry several times a month. 
Then there is Lupin's 'furry little problem'. 

Having been removed as a teacher, and having had the 
restictions on werewolves become even more strict since 
then, I think Lupin saw himself at a substantial 
disadvantage (whether actually true or not). Also, I 
think Lupin thought that if Dumbledore thought him the 
best condidate, he would have suggested him. It's not 
really up to Lupin to volunteer; it's up to Dumbledore 
to pick the best candidate - all things considered. 

Sirius and his sinking mood also complicate the situation. 
It's possible that both Dumbledore and Lupin thought 
keeping Sirius's spirits up was a more critical use of 
Lupin's talents than tutoring Harry. Plus Lupin may have 
well had other duties for the Order that he needed to 
perform. I think Dumbledore made his choice, and Lupin, 
the ever compliant person that he is, just accepted that. 

I do see one flaw in both Dumbledore and Lupin's 
thinking though. While Snape may be a far superior 
Legilimens/Occlumens, Lupin is an infinitely more effective 
teacher. I think Snape used the worst possible teaching 
method in teaching Harry, and that lead to the overal 
failure of the effort. If Lupin had taught Harry, Harry's 
skill might not have been perfect, but he would have been 
able to function to some degree. As it is, though Harry 
is actually capable of doing it, he sees the Occulmency 
classes and his efforts as a failure, and so he has written 
that skill off as a lost cause. Yet, we see that the skill 
is actually there, but Snape made the circumstances such 
that it was impossible to nuture and enhance that skill. 
I think Harry's belief that he can't do Occumency is the
major obstical to his being able to do it. He believes 
he is a failure, and so he is.

So, yes, I think, most definitely, that Lupin is certainly 
a skilled Legilimens, and very probably a capable Occlumens.

I also want to emphasize again that Legilimens/Occlumens 
are likely skills that are common in varying degrees; Lupin 
is in the high-middle ground of skill, Snape is on the very 
high end of skill level. 

Now to a point that is very tangental to the immediate 
discussion, and a point that I have made before because I 
think it is important to keep in mind when discussing this
subject.

We have actually seen Legilimens in TWO distinct forms. One 
form that could be used by just about any magical person 
regardless of skill level, and another that is very much 
tied to personal skill. 

There is the Legilimens SPELL which is quite different and 
unique and separate from the SKILL of Legilimens. When 
people discuss this subject they tend to merge those two 
separate and only slightly related things into one entity.

Anyone with a reasonable degree of magical skill can 
perform the Legilimens Spell, but notice the results, a 
disjointed cascade of random memories. It would only be 
by random chance that the information you were looking for 
would come floating by, and also notice that memories can 
be blocked as Harry clearly demonstrates. 

Even more important, it is not a very stealthy method of 
gathering information. The 'victim' is clearly and 
consciously aware that something is going on, and summoning 
the resolve, can stop the cascade. 

I suspect there is probably a companion Occlumency Spell 
to block access to memories, but it is as crude and obvious 
as the Legilimens Spell; again, not very stealthy or subtle.

The natural SKILLS of Legilimency (primarily) and 
Occlumency are much more subtle and much more selective. 
When Voldemort preforms Legilimency, I think he very 
stealthly enters the mind and is able to draw forth very 
specific memories. He is selectively able to read the mind. 
Again, that's not absolute fact, but my reasonable and 
likely expansion of what we know.

I think Occlumency is the same. If Voldemort probes Snape's 
mind and senses that Snape is blocking his access, then 
Voldemort is going to be very suspicious. However, if Snape 
is able to close those sections of his mind that he wants 
kept secret, close them in a way that gives the impression 
that they don't exist, then to Voldemort it gives the 
impression that he is able to freely roam Snape's mind. 

I think the Room of Requirements is a good metaphor for 
Snape's Occulmency skill; there /is/ a door and behind it 
lay your heart and minds desire, but on the outside, all 
Voldemort sees is a plain and simple section of ordinary 
wall. To survive, Snape's skill level must be that high, 
so high that you can't even tell that it is there.

I just want to make sure that people make the distinction 
between the Legilimency SKILL and the Legilimency SPELL, 
they are not the same thing.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn