Is Lupin a Legilimens? Spell vs Skill

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 157350

 "Mike" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:

> 
> > bboyminn:
> > <snip> 
> > ... . As it is, though Harry is actually capable of 
> > doing it, he sees the Occulmency  classes and his 
> > efforts as a failure, and so he has written that skill 
> > off as a lost cause. Yet, we see that the skill is 
> > actually there, ....  He believes he is a failure, and 
> > so he is.
> > <snip>
> 
> Mike:
> Could you expand on Harry being able to do Occlumency? 
> See I've resigned myself to believing, like Harry does, 
> that he can't do it because he can't rein in his emotions. 
> Have I been duped by that *unreliable narrator* again?
> 
> 

bboyminn:

Someone else posted the Quote from JKR's interview on 
this matter, but I don't actually think she is saying 
Harry is incapable of it; I think she is say that he 
isn't and won't every be very good at it.

Think about the Occlumency lessons in general. In those 
lessons Harry is as curious to see the cascade of 
memories as Snape is. In fact, Harry is probably more 
interested than Snape. So, Harry never summons a force 
of resistance against them.

However, when he sees a memory coming on that he feels is 
private and that he absolutely does not want Snape to see, 
the same voice he hears in the back of his mind when he 
is fighting the Imperious Curse says 'NO!', and Harry 
cuts off the memory.

Here, I believe is, the first Occulumency lesson from OotP-

(Snape) ". . . brace yourself, now. Legilimens!'

Snape had struck before Harry was ready, before he had 
even begun to summon any force of resistance. The office 
swam in front of his eyes and vanished; image after image 
was racing through his mind like a flickering film so 
vivid it blinded him to his surroundings.

He was five, watching Dudley riding a new red bicycle, 
(...edited memories...) . . . Cho Chang was drawing 
nearer to him under the mistletoe . . .
    
No, said a voice inside Harry's head, as the memory of 
Cho drew nearer, you're not watching that, you're not 
watching it, it's private — '
    
He felt a sharp pain in his knee. Snape's office had come 
back into view and he realised that he had fallen to the 
floor; one of his knees had collided painfully with the 
leg of Snape's desk. He looked up at Snape, who had 
lowered his wand and was rubbing his wrist. There was 
an angry weal there, like a scorch mark.
    
'Did you mean to produce a Stinging Hex?' asked Snape 
coolly.

'No,' said Harry bitterly, getting up from the floor

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Notice that when Harry sense a memory coming that he 
absolutely does not want Snape to see, he is able to 
cut it off. Instead of standing in dazed silence, the 
voice in the back of his mind come forward and 'wakes' 
him.

This holds true in all the lessons, Harry is interested 
in seeing the memories, but when a private memory comes, 
using one method or another, he cuts it off.


Now notice that last Occlumency lesson -

He (Snape) raised his wand: 'One — two — three — Legilimens!'
    
A hundred Dementors were swooping towards Harry across the 
lake in the grounds . . . he screwed up his face in 
concentration . . . they were coming closer . . . he could 
see the dark holes beneath their hoods  . . yet he could 
also see Snape standing in front of him, his eyes fixed 
on Harry's face, muttering under his breath . . . and 
somehow, Snape was growing clearer, and the Dementors 
were growing fainter . . .
    
Harry raised his own wand.

'Protego!'

Snape staggered — his wand flew upwards, away from 
Harry — 'and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with 
memories that were not his: ...
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

Notice that in this case Harry is far less effected 
by the Legilimens Spell. He isn't refusing a specific 
private memory, he is resisting the curse itself. It 
is having far less effect on him than in the past. 

That establishes to me that Harry is able to do this, 
but he will never be good at it for all the reason JKR 
pointed out in her interview. Harry is too damaged, his 
emotions are too close to the surface. 

We are told that Occlumency skills are an extention of 
the ability to fight the Imperious Curse, and when Harry 
resist the Legilimens Spell we see it happen in a way 
that is similar to his resistance to the Imperious Curse. 

When Harry flatly does not want a memory seen, he is able 
to cut it off, to refuse to let it be seen. Now the 
Legilimens SKILL, as I have said, is much more subtle 
than the Spell. Therefore, Harry does have more trouble 
resisting the Skill as is seen in the bathroom scene 
where Snape probes his mind after the fight with Draco. 

As JKR also pointed out, and I think it comes into play 
in that scene, Harry is very honest about his emotions. 
He does suppress or repress his emotions, he is very 
willing to face them.

Because of these things, Harry will never be a very good 
Occlumens, but in every Occlumency lesson, he demonstrates 
that when he wants to, he can prevent memories from being 
seen.

> > bboyminn again:
> > 
> > We have actually seen Legilimens in TWO distinct 
> > forms. ...
> > 
> > There is the Legilimens SPELL which is quite different 
> > and unique and separate from the SKILL of Legilimens. 
> > ...
> 
> Mike again:
> Excellent point!!! It almost pains me to snip any of 
> it. Permit me to add one thing; People keep confusing 
> the two related but seperate skills. And while they are 
> related, it seems entirely possible that one could be 
> "superb" at one while being only passable at the other. 
> ...
> 
> Once again, excellent post!!!
> 
> Mike
>


bboyminn:

Also a sore point with me. People assume that because 
Snape is a Occlumens that he is automatically an equal 
Legilimens. While it is likely that having one skill 
improves the chances of having the other, being an expert 
at one does not guarantee being an expert at the other. 

Just passing it along.

Steve/bboyminnn