CHAPDISC:HBP19,Elf Tails

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 157505

---  Kathryn Jones <kjones at ...> wrote:

Chapter Discussions: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter
19, Elf Tails

KJ asks:

1. ... interesting ... that Hermione appears to have gone
from hate to love in a very short time. Has she really had
an epiphany about her feelings for Ron? Is she feeling
guilty for treating him so badly? ... Is this emotionality
in character for her?

bboyminn:

It is one thing to be very annoyed, even angry, at a
friend during normal times, but in a time of crisis, these
petty hurts are quickly forgotten. So, it's not so much a
change of heart or emotions for Hermione, but a change of
attitude brought on my circumstances. Even if she was not
in love with Ron, she certainly considers him a good
friend and would have put aside petty hurts and jealousy
while Ron was in the hospital.

At the same time, I think in her jealousy, to some extent,
she was taking Ron for granted, and his sudden near death
woke her up to this. Now she realizes that life is short
and there is little time for such things.

Notice that it was the same with Ron and Harry in GoF.
They had a row that Harry didn't see any way to mend, but 
when Ron saw the level of danger Harry was in in tackling 
the dragons, Ron quickly came to Harry's side. You rally 
round friend in time of crisis even if you are angry at 
them.


2. Have we been given any previous information on Essence
of Rue? ... What purpose might it serve?

bboyminn:

Though I don't think it is relevant, I will point out the
Rue also means 'To feel regret, remorse, or sorrow for'.
At the moment, I have to take it as a 'throw away'. It may
be related to easing stomach discomfort, and as such is
just an obscure historical fact. But beyond that I don't
think it will have any significants in the last book.



3. Since the readers know more than the characters at this
point, are the two attempts to harm someone confirmation
that Draco is ... trying to kill Dumbledore? Do you think
that Harry has enough information to come to the same
conclusion but fails to do so?

bboyminn:

I've spoken about Draco in HBP before, and I still hold by
those conclusions. Everybody knows Draco is up to
something. Why? Because Draco is /always/ up to something.
It's just that this time it is probably more serious. Yet,
how can anyone really know what Draco is up to?

Yes, Draco has a task, but his long term and more
immediate task it to fix the Vanishing Cabinet so he can
later bring Death Eaters into the castle which will at
that final time facilitate his killing of Dumbledore.

Though Snape, Dumbledore, and Harry don't know Draco's
objective. They only know that he appears to be engaged in
some on-going task, and there is nothing to indicate that
the on-going task is to kill Dumbledore. I really don't
think, in the moment, anyone but Harry makes a connection
between the two, and Harry is operating on pure suspicion
and dislike of Draco. All available evidences points to
the fact that Draco is not involved in those incidences.

I suspect that if Snape or Dumbledore did manage to catch
a glimpse into Draco's mind during the school year, they
would not see Dumbledore but instead the cabinet, so the
connection wouldn't really be there.


4. Do you think that Hermione's statements convince the
others that Slughorn is the intended victim?

bboyminn:

I'm not really sure that's what Hermione said. She implies
that who ever conceived this method didn't know Slughorn
very well. Implying just that it was a very unreliable way
to poison anyone.

As to whether the others are convinced, I think they agree
with Hermione on the unreliability aspect, but they are
all at a loss for whom the poison was actually intended.
Any of the suggested victims could just as easily have
been the target, or it may have simply been a random
attack. They are uniformly mystified.


5. Considering the information that we have been given on
Life Debts, is this fore-shadowing of what will come in
Book 7? ..

bboyminn:

I think Arthur's voice is reflecting distress at how many
of his family members have been in danger, that and the
worry of the moment. So, it is not necessarily related
specifically to Harry saving them. Certainly that is an
undeniable aspect, but I don't think the tone of his voice
fall on Harry, in a manner of speaking.

As to the Life Debts, as others have pointed out,
according to JKR, Ginny doesn't own Harry a Life Debt.
Yes, she owes him her life in the common everyday sense,
but not in the magically binding sense.

It seems that the 'life saving' has to be is a very direct
and deliberate way. Harry's information lead to Arthur
being saved, but Harry didn't save him with his own hands.
To save Ginny, Harry had to defeat young Tom Riddle, but
he did that to save his own life as well. Ginny being save
was an indirect, unintended, and unknown result of
defeating Tom Riddle.

Ron, on the other hand, is a little more unclear. It was
Harry who directly and personally administered the Bazoar,
and it seems that it made the critical difference. So,
perhaps Ron owns Harry a magically binding Life Debt, but
only JKR can confirm it for sure.


6. Does Harry understand what has been said here? Does
Hermione owe Harry and/or Ron a life debt after the troll
incident, ...

bboyminn:

It was Harry direct mercy that saved Wormtail, so that
magical life debt is undisputed. Other than the
possibility of Ron's life debt, I don't think there are
any more.

See above.

As to what Harry understand, I think is unclear since I'm
not sure even we understand.



7. Why is Hagrid so careful to make sure that no one over-
hears their conversation and then blurts out to Harry that
Dumbledore was angry with Snape? ...

bboyminn:

I think Hagrid is just being normally paranoid. 'Things'
are happening at Hogwarts; dark and dangerous things. That
is cause for worry and cause for caution. By now Hagrid
knows that somehow Harry is or will be involved in all the
unpleasant things that happen at or near Hogwarts, so he
feels comfortable taking to Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Once
he ascertains that 'the coast is clear', he reverts back
to his old casual indiscrete self and lets the
Snape/Dumbledore cat out of the bag.

8. Knowing what we do about the Unbreakable Vow, and
assuming that Dumbledore was told ..., is there anything
he, Dumbledore, could have done ..., without triggering
the Vow? Do you believe that Dumbledore was willing to
risk others in order to protect his spy and keep his plan
in action?


bboyminn:

As I pointed out earlier, Dumbledore and/or Snape had no
way of knowing what Draco's ultimate goal was, nor did
they know what his on-going goal (the cabinet) was. Yes,
everybody knew Draco was up to something, but exactly
what, and what proof they had, is very unclear to all.

I don't see how Dumbledore or Snape could have acted in
any other way under the circumstance. We have to judge not
by what we knew along the way, or what we found out in the
end, but what evidence Dumbledore personally had along the
way. Maybe Draco was involved in the foiled murder
attempts, but then maybe those were unrelated acts by
Voldemort to harrass the school.

Maybe in the end they would discover that Draco simply had
a secret girl friend (or boy friend if you so desire) that
he was meeting in the astronomy tower on a semi-regular
basis.

Yes, Draco is /always/ up to something, but what evidence
was available to tie him to this specific 'something'?
None that I can see.

On the Vow specifically, I will point out as before, that
we don't know what Snape knew when he took the Vow, and we
don't know how his knowledge at the time of the Vow
affects it. Is it constrained by Snape's limited knowledge
when he took it? Or, does the commitment implied in the
Vow expand as Snape's knowledge of the circumstances
expands? We don't know.

Snape Vowed to complete the task if Draco couldn't do it.
But, what if Snape never, until the absolute last second,
knew what the task was?

I don't think Snape and Dumbledore conspired in advance
for Snape to kill Dumbledore. But I do think they
discussed their priorities and long term goals. I think
Dumbledore was sick and fading from the 'Dead Hand Curse'.
He knew his days were numbers, so he told Snape if they
were ever in a situation were Snape was forced to choose,
Snape should select the action that had the greatest long
term potential for leading to Voldemort's defeat. But that
was the extent of it.

On the tower, when Dumbledore said 'please', he meant
please do what you know is for the greater good. Though I
confess that the Vow came into play. It would be pointless
for Snape to sacrifice himself in some pointless
unproductive but noble gesture. Better to survive the Vow,
and live to fight again some other day.



9. What would the effect on the Vow have been if Draco had
been stopped and hidden before he actually began to
perform the steps necessary to complete his task?

bboyminn:

Difficult, very difficult to determine, partly since we
don't know the intricate details of the workings of the
Vow. Is it constrained by the knowledge of the Vow maker?
Is it contrained by the intent of the active party
(Draco)? If Draco changes his mind, does the 'deed'
change, or is the 'deed' constrained by '...the deed that
the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform...'? Was the
'deed' fixing the cabinet or killing Dumbledore or both or
neither?

It is possible, I speculate, that knowing Dark Magic the
way he does, that Snape had some way to neutralize the Vow
which is why he agreed to it so quickly. It's possible
that, because of this, the Vow doesn't come into play at
all.


10. We have seen in the books that Snape had promised four
things, .... Which promise do you think Dumbledore was
insisting Snape keep? ...

bboyminn:

I think, as I said above, that Dumbledore was reminding
Snape to keep his priorities straight. That the sacrifice
of a single soldier or general is worth it if in the
circumstances it saves the army.

It's possible that Dumbledore was suspecting Draco of
being assigned the task of causing his (Dumbledore) death.
So, while he wasn't flatly asking Snape to kill him, he
was reminding Snape, that Snape had promised to do what
must be done for the 'greater good' if and when the time
came.



11. Hagrid called Filch "a sneaking Squib." ... Do you
think that Hagrid has some personal conflict with Filch?
... Does Hagrid share the WW dislike of Squibs?

bboyminn:

I don't think Hagrid has ever shown any great love or
respect for Filch, but I don't think it is prejudice, I
think it is a natural dislike for an unpleasant man. Filch
is always 'at war' with the students whereas Hagrid tends
to want to please the students, more so the Trio, and
engraciate himself with them.

Further this was a very tramatic moment, and Hagrid
probably felt is was very insensitive of Filch to try and
get the kids in trouble when one of their friends nearly
died. Further, it was Filch completely discounting
Hagrid's position of authority as a professor/teacher.
Certainly students escorted by a teacher can't be punished
for being out late.

So, Filch's insensitivity to both the students and to
Hagrid were at the seat of his anger.



12. We are not told who the girls were who were
accompanying Malfoy. ... Were they Crabbe and Goyle? ...

bboyminn:

Well, I suspect they were certainly Crabbe and Goyle, but
I don't think who they were in appearance is relevant. The
relevant factor is that Draco was in the company of two
younger girls who he would likely not associate with. That
made it suspicious. Who the were specifically isn't
important.


13. We have seen Harry as pretty clueless when it comes to
feelings, but here we see him put two and two together and
come to the right answer when it comes to Ron and
Lavender. ...

bboyminn:

I think it was pretty obvious before this that Ron was
less than enthusiastic about the direction his
relationship with Lavender was taking. And Ron always
being asleep for Lavender and never being asleep for Harry
made it pretty obvious. So, I think Harry had frustration
on many levels. He was annoyed with Lavender for harrasing
him. He was annoyed at Ron for prolonging a bad situation.
He was just annoyed and he wanted it to stop.



14. Ron is clearly exasperated by Harry's obsession with
Draco. Why has this changed from the first books, where
Ron and Hermione bought into everything Harry believed?

bboyminn:

I think Ron and Hermione finally agree that Draco was up
to something, but as I said, they didn't worry about it
too much because Draco is always up to something. But, I
don't think they realize the magnitude of Draco's action,
and of course, other than Harry's suspicions, they really
had no reason to. I don't think anyone could have
predicted just how deep Draco had gotten himself in.


15. Why did Harry not call Dobby in the first place? ...
Has Harry done enough to ensure Kreacher's silence?

bboyminn:

Harry considers Dobby a friend, but he doesn't see himself
as Dobby's master even though Dobby has certainly shown
loyalty to him. I don't think he thought it fair to give
Dobby orders or to ask him to do things for him, unless
they were very small insignificant things. I think in
order to comfortably maintain his friendship with Dobby,
he has to avoid any sense of a Master/Servant
relationship.

Kreacher on the other hand is Harry's servant, whether he
likes it or not. Since Harry has no real frienship with
Kreacher, he is not as bothered by the Master/Servant
relationship. Though certainly that does bother him in
general.

Kreacher is so unreliable and so unpredictable that I
don't think anyone could ever do enough to secure Kreacher
or his silence.


16. Since Ron was surprised by this demand of Harry's for
Kreacher to spy on Draco, is it possible that this kind of
behaviour is frowned on in the Wizarding World?

bboyminn:

I think Ron is reflecting a frustration with how obsessed
Harry is with Draco. No one even remotely believe how
seriously Draco has gotten himself involved with the Death
Eaters. I'm sure Draco has a hard time believing it
himself. Harry is really acting on no evidence, so I don't
blame Ron for his frustration.

So, I don't think Ron's frustration is with Harry sending
Kreacher to spy; it's with sending Kreacher to spy /on
Draco/.


17. We have been given a great deal of information in this
chapter, but has anything occurred to actually move the
plot forward in this book? Has anything happened in this
chapter which is likely to have an impact on the final
book?

bboyminn:

Again...difficult...very difficult.

Certainly this chapter is setting the stage, dropping
clues, and developing the story toward the final
conclusion in this one book. And certainly characters like
Kreacher will appear again and be significant, I think
most of what happens in related to the one book that it is
in.

Steve/bboyminn