[HPforGrownups] Re: ACID POPS and Teenager Draco

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 157506

Mike:
 Besides two weak and ill
> planned murder attempts, the whole the year is spent trying to fix a
> cabinet, by himself. What happened to those other attributes he
> seemed to be cultivating through five books?

Magpie:
I was going to say they just didn't apply this this problem, but I actually 
think that the Cabinet plot is more the type of thing that comes naturally 
to Draco,  in terms of his figuring out a way to get through the security. 
That, for me, is an important element of the storyline.  Dumbledore praises 
the Cabinet plot as if it's an ambitious homework project, and Draco draws 
comfort and courage from it.  I think the Cabinet plot is important 
specifically because it is something Draco plans and succeeds at himself--I 
think it's what proves to him (Draco) that he's not just a screw up who 
failed.  He may not have done what Voldemort set him out to do, but he did 
make his own sub-plan work.  Without that I don't think he'd be in the right 
emotional place to make the choice is starts to make at the end.

> Mike:
> Like I said, I'm not a Shipper. But I have only seen teenage or
> adolescent love in the first five books. And I saw no *sexual*
> relationships and certainly not explicit. This sounds like you
> reading into canon what isn't there. The first *adult* relationship
> I saw was there in HBP Ch. 2, and I didn't see Narcissa simply
> pleading with a family friend.

Magpie:
Sorry, I was referring to the fact that there are romances in canon which 
are sometimes shown to us through things like snogging, which is explicitly 
sexual.  Remus/Tonks is an adult relationship in that they're both adults. 
I didn't mean to imply that there were many scenes that read as adult sex 
scenes. If Snape/Narcissa eventually becomes canon explicitly it will 
presumably be along those lines.

> Mike:
> I saw her using everything at her disposal, including a bit
> of 'implied' sexual coercion. Am I saying they are having an affair
> at this point? NO, but Narcissa is being coercively feminine as well
> as being obviously distraught. If you don't see it that way then
> we'll have to agree to disagree.

Magpie:
I've got no problem with anyone seeing her using feminine wiles along with 
everything else in that scene.

> Mike:
> Hey Magpie,are you an anti-shipper like me?

Mike:
Heh--well, sometimes.  But like I said I have no problem with anyone seeing 
Narcissa as using her desirability on Snape on that scene.  As a beautiful 
woman she probably does that instinctively.  That's a different argument 
that some shippy arguments I've read about such things where that's all 
that's going on.

> Mike:
> Yeah, I agree with Sydney's synopsis for the most part. My point is
> that the character comparison was a literary device used by JKR. She
> chose to make Draco act isolated for that purpose. And, up until HBP
> hasn't Draco always got help, one way or the other, from others?

Magpie:
Often he does, yes.  He snuck after the Trio to see the dragon in PS/SS 
alone, if that counts.  But I agree that Draco doesn't usually have a 
problem acting with others.  In the past Draco's usually been relegated to 
trying to use the way things are going to his advantage.   He never has any 
power himself and usually tries to get it by manipulating power outside 
himself.

Mike:
> What makes you say Harry hid the possession, even at first? I don't
> recall it even coming up after the MoM if that's when you're talking
> about. Harry was all wrapped up in Sirius' death. If your talking
> about the Snake attacking Arthur sequence, all the kids heard the
> possession theory at the same time on the extendable ears.

Magpie:
I was referring to that part, yes, where Harry thinks about distancing 
himself from everyone because he feels unclean and possessed by Voldemort. 
In GoF he wants to keep Sirius from coming back to England to help him as 
well.

Mike:
 He did isolate himself when he thought he was the
> weapon, but he wasn't hiding anything, he thought he was
> *protecting* everyone. Is there something I missed?

Magpie:
Yes, that's exactly what I meant, Harry thinking he was protecting everyone 
by isolating himself.  Draco is in a different situation and isolating 
himself for different reasons.

> Mike:
> Right, and up til now, Draco was shown to be smarter than that.

> Mike:
> A cabinet repair guy is what he brings to the table? A job it took
> him all year to accomplish alone, one he thought he was destined to
> fail at?

Magpie:
No, what he brings to the table is that he's the only person who can provide 
a secret way through Hogwarts' defenses, a job he succeeds at alone, 
shocking everyone, including Dumbledore.  If he handed that over to Snape 
right away he'd have nothing, since the murder is the part he can't do.

Mike:
But it just begs the question: Did he
> think this whole plot through at all? Why was he repairing the
> cabinet, how would that help him to kill DD? He made those two
> feeble attempts to kill DD, but what if by some miracle one of them
> worked? Would he still have continued to repair the cabinet?

Magpie:
No, I don't think he would have continued with the Cabinet in that case, 
since he'd have already succeeded in killing DD. Unfortunately what those 
attempts really did was to show him that murder was not for him.  But he 
tried, as Sydney said, to just suck it up and hide his fears, focusing on 
the Cabinet fixing itself.

The DEs were supposed to give him the ability to kill DD--which they did in 
the end.  After that, ironically, the DEs were actually Draco's undoing by 
acting like exactly what they were supposed to be: backup.  A typical Draco 
plan as described above.

Mike:
> This is why, IMO, that Draco is OOC. In the past he would not only
> have seeked help from trusted confidants, he would have asked
> himself the question, why am I doing this? You say, iirc, that he
> thought he was bringing in backup. Draco, on the tower, only told DD
> that there were DEs in the school.

Magpie:
DD, I believe, refers to them as reinforcements, understanding that they are 
supposed to be there to give Draco the opportunity to kill Dumbledore.  I'm 
sure Draco did ask himself what the DEs were there for and thought of them 
as the thing he needed to do it.

Mike:
> But if he thought he needed backup, why not enlist Snape? Because he
> thought Snape would step in front of him and kill DD before he got
> the chance?

Magpie:
Because Snape, unlike the other DEs, carries a ton more threatening baggage. 
Draco can have the other DEs as hired thug backup in ways he can't have 
Snape, his mentor and teacher. Snape is the person he has to first prove 
himself against and then hide his horror at murder from.  If he went to 
Snape he would still be the student he'd always been, and everyone would see 
it that way.  The other DEs are showing up at the last minute.  They don't 
bring the same personal issues.

Mike:
 That's the way he presented it to DD. But if that's the
> case, why wasn't he concerned that one of the other DEs wouldn't do
> the same? He didn't seem to even know who was coming, much less
> whether one of them would try to "steal his glory". At least a Snape
> that he believed to be on his side and a friend of the family and a
> mentor to him would be easier to predict. What gave Draco the idea
> that Snape would stab him in the back? Moreover, why would he trust
> strangers over Snape?

Magpie:
He wasn't worried that Snape would stab him in the back, imo, he was worried 
that Snape would do exactly what Snape was trying to do, take over.  Take 
things out of his hands because he's a child--just as Narcissa thinks he 
should.  As Sydney said, the other DEs didn't bring all these personal 
issues.  They were there to be ordered around by Draco no matter who showed 
up.  They were there to provide backup.  Snape is a far more powerful figure 
that Draco's got a ton of emotional issues with.  So it's really not 
completely about not trusting Snape, at least not in that way.

I actually think Snape understands a lot of this.  I love that in the Tower, 
when Snape gets Draco out, he picks him up by the back of his robe.  I can't 
help but feel JKR intentionally went for a physical action that called to 
mind a cat carrying off a kitten.

> Mike
> P.S. Magpie, I insterted words in [brackets] where it looked like
> you dropped them. I hope you don't mind, they looked like typos to
> me, I just wanted to make sure your meaning was clear. :-)

Magpie:
Thank you!  I do that all the time and even reading stuff over I never see 
it until it's posted.:-)

-m