Story Structure (WAS: ACID POPS and teenager Draco) continues

[Sydney]

No: HPFGUIDX 157554

Taken down and reposted for a correction and for clarity...


And now, back to our Show!

> > > Neri,
> > > who notes also that nobody's interested in discussing the juicy SHIP
> > > clues in Spinner's End, which is quite strange for HPfGU.
> >
> > Sydney:
> >
> > "Strange", or "totally understandable because they're not clues".
> > Your call.
> >
>
> Neri:
> Or maybe, just maybe, "totally understandable because the clues point
> in a direction you don't like"?

Sydney:

Oh, I get it-- you were referring to MY not addressing the 'clues'.
Sorry, I get confused about when you're addressing me and when you're
speaking in generalities... I assumed you meant, the board as a whole
wasn't falling like starving dogs upon a possible ship, which IS odd.

Alright-y, let's have a look at your close reading then, which came
about because someone made the sensible point that Narcissa wouldn't
have mentioned that Snape was Lucius' old friend as a reason to help,
if she had gone to him to use his lust for her as an incentive.

To be honest, it's not so much a close reading as you interpolating a
load of mustache-twirling that isn't in the text. As far as I can
see, you have two actual points: one, that Snape points out more than
once that Draco is in peril because of Voldemort's rage at Lucius; and
two, that Narcissa is a heap on the floor when Snape proposes to help.
However, you did seem to snip rather a lot of critical things, and
put in rather a lot of redundant subtext to explain things that are
already explained in the text itself.

To summarize in advance, you do everything in your power snipping-wise
to give the impression that Narcissa is hysterical because Snape is
goading her into it, because he enjoys seeing her in hysterics, and
further that their discussion is primarily about Lucius and his flaws.
 In order to do this you cut the critical point-- twice-- that
Narcissa is hysterical because the scene is about her realizing that
Voldemort's *intends* Draco to be killed.  Snape does not say this
himself-- he merelly confirms it obliquely, twice, when Narcissa says
it (the parts that you cut).  Narcissa is in the position of someone
going to a doctor desperate for reassurance that their child does not
have a terminal illness.  Snape as the doctor is refusing to lie, but
he is neither inventing, exaggerating, or playing up the basic
situation.  It doesn't exclude your reading that he is secretly
enjoying it, but it isn't there in the text, either.  Neither is any
inclusion of Luicius that is incomprehensible in the context of Snape
explaining the nature of the illness.

I'm sorry, this is naturally
going to be hard to follow, as I have to go back and forth between
what Neri quotes from the text in his argument, and the text itself,
and my argument. God, I wish this board allowed HTML so I could use
some italics or indents or a different font or something, but I'll
just have to live with being unclear. For those following along at
home, Neri's post of Killer Snape/Narcissa clues we should all be
talking about is no. 157342. Here we go:

Actual text:

*
"... Severus... please... you are, you have always been, Draco's
favorite teacher... you are Lucius' old friend... I beg you... you are
the Dark Lord's favorite, most trusted advisor... will you speak to
him, persuade him--"
*

Neri:

But even this single small reminder of the Lucius/Snape friendship is
a BIG mistake of Narcissa, as Snape immediately responds by beating
her on the ears with her dear Lucius: (snip canon quote)


Sydney:

In the scene, Snape is stressing Voldemort's anger at Lucius because
he's responding to Narcissa's line, which is, that Snape should talk
Voldemort out of his revenge plans. You can put in whatever Subtext
of Evil you like, but in the text, he is explaining to Narcissa that
what she begging him to do *at this stage of the scene* -- that is,
use his influence with Voldemort to get him to not punish Lucius in
this way -- is not possible. Because Voldemort is really, really
angry at Lucius. I don't seem to see the part where you cover why it
would make sense that she brought it up in the first place,
secondarily to his favoured teacher status or not, seeing as it would
seriously set back her objectives here. But let's move on:

Neri:

And Narcissa must realize her mistake,
because she immediately changes tack and go on to tell Snape, with the
proper attitude I might add, how *you* (italics) could do for her what
Lucius obviously can't, and how Snape would be rewarded beyond all the
other DEs (Lucius naturally included):


Sydney:

Whoa now, she doesn't *immediately* change tack. After Snape's
explanation that Voldemort's anger at Lucius is the reason Voldemort
cannot be persuaded by Snape, Narcissa responds with the logical
inference:

*
"Then I am right, he has chosen Draco in revenge!" choked Narcissa,
"He does not mean him to succeed, he wants him to be killed trying!"

When Snape said nothing, Narcissa seemed to lose what little
self-restraint she still possessed..
*

Oh, wait, you include that part!:

Neri:
************************************************************
When Snape said nothing, Narcissa seemed to lose what little
self-restraint she still possessed. Standing up, she staggered to
Snape and seized the front of his robes. Her face close to his, her
tears falling onto his chest, she gasped, "You could do it. *You*
could do it instead of Draco, Severus. You would succeed, of course
you would, and he would reward you beyond all of us —"
************************************************************

Now that's more like it, but she's still not quite kneeling, so Snape
reminds her again why the Malfoys have acquired the Dark Lord's wrath:


Sydney:

To me it looks like Narcissa is responding to Snape's silent
confirmation that Voldemort plans on Draco being killed, which DOES
seem a little alarming and something that would motivate hysteria.
But perhaps you are right, and the subtext is that she's actually
responding to Snape's runnning down Lucius being a reminder that Snape
is a rival to Lucius, something she'd forgotten about, and consciously
changing tactics for that reason.

Maybe this is a personal reaction, but I think I'll stick with the
surface reason, even if its a bit boring, that Narcissa is reacting in
a pretty direct way to the "Voldemort wants Draco to be killed" part.

Hang on, now, hang on.. you snipped another bit that comes before the
line of Snape's you're about to go on to. Let me put it in for you
before we move along:


*
"Snape caught hold of wrists and removed her clutching hands. Looking
down into her tear-stained face, he said, slowly, "He intends me to do
it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try
first. You see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall be
able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fullfilling my useful role
as spy."
*

Then Narcissa says,

*
"In other words, it doesn't matter to him if Draco is killed!"
*

That's when Snape says, to return to the part you include in your post:

Neri:
************************************************************
"The Dark Lord is very angry," repeated Snape quietly. "He failed to
hear the prophecy. You know as well as I do, Narcissa, that he does
not forgive easily."
************************************************************

A bit repetitive of you, Severus, and not very diplomatic either, if
you are interested in the good will of the Malfoy family.


Sydney:

So, the subtext could be, "Yes, Lucius is a dork. You should be with
ME!". Or it could be, "You are correct, it doesn't matter to
Voldemort that Draco is killed, in fact, that is his objective". The
latter is harsh but true, which is Snape's normal style; and it's what
he has been trying to make clear from the top of this series of beats.
It's repetitive because he is making it clear to Narcissa that they
both have to accept that the simple version, Snape talking Voldemort
out of his revenge, ain't gonna happen. At least IMO.

Back to Neri, putting in some mustache-twirling and conflating a bunch
of stuff:


Neri:
But no doubt
it effectively breaks Narcissa completely. She "crumples, falling at
his feet, sobbing and moaning on the floor". And *now* suddenly Snape
shows her a little tenderness, oh yeah. He seizes her by her arms,
lifts her up and steers her back to the sofa (snort! JKR has never
been very original when it comes to blatant SHIPping), he hints that
he may be able to help her, and finally she's properly kneeling at his
feet. *Now* that she's just where he wanted her, he kneels in front of
her too and clasps hands.


Sydney:

I think he shows 'a bit of tenderness' her because... well, she's now
crumpled and hysterical on the floor and not even able to pay
attention to what he's saying. I don't see a whole lot of
now-I-have-her-where-want-her here-- what does he actually do? You
snip this for some reason:

*
"He then poured her more wine and forced the glass into her hand.
"Narcissa, that's enough. Drink this. Listen to me."
*

So she listens to him-- "she quietened a little" , which, again, on
the bare beat level of the text, was his objective in picking her up
of the floor. It is at this point that he says:

*
"It might be possible.. for me to help Draco."
*

Now, what has changed here? I mean in the actual scene, not in the
internal subtextual possibilities. In your subtext, the change is
that Narcissa is now properly hysterical and has reached an
appropriate flattery point.

In the text, a new idea *has* been introduced, one to which Snape
resonds "slowly". The start of the series of beats at which Snape is
described as speaking "slowly" and "quietly" (as opposed to "flatly"),
is when he responds to Narcissa's line:

*
"YOU could do it. You could do it instead of Draco,
Severus."
*

Wow, she says it like, twice! The new idea which seems a
little more significant, and a little liklier to start a
thought-process in Snape, than hitting yet another level of hysteria
and flattery. And I might mention, it's something that actually pays
off in the book--

"You could do it instead of Draco".
He said slowly: "He intends me to do it in the end, I think."

You can scroll up to see the entire text of that exchange. For some
reason you skip ahead and say that Snape and Narcissa clasp hands as
soon as he's got her on the sofa, missing all sorts of juicy action!
Snape says haltingly that it is possible for him to help Draco. Then:

*
"Severus-- oh, Severus-- you would help him? Would you look after
him, see that he comes to no harm?"
"I can try."
She flung away her glass, it skidded across the table as she slid off
the sofa into a kneeling position at Snape's feet, seized his hand in
both of hers and pressed her lips to it.
"If you are there to protect him... Severus, will you swear it? Will
you make the Unbreakable Vow?"
"The Unbreakable Vow?" Snape's expression was blank, unreadable:
Bellatrix, however, let out a cackle of triumphant laughter.
"Aren't you listening, Narcissa? Oh, he'll *try*, I'm sure... the
usual empty words, the usual slithering out of action... oh, oh the
Dark Lord's orders, of course!"
Snape did not look at Bellatrix. His black eyes were fixed on
Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand.
"Certainly, Narcissa, I shall make the Unbreakable Vow," he said quietly.
*

Now, we have a whole load of things going on at once. Narciassa goes
into fait-accompli mode-- I think her going on her knees and taking
his hand is the equivalent of grabbing his hand, putting a pen in it,
and holding it over a legal document with her eyes shining. Bellatrix
does a, "He won't do it 'cause he's chicken" thing. Snape is still
using the quiet voice he started using with his line, "He intends me
to do it in the end, I think". His agreeing to the Vow could be a
reaction to Narcissa, a reaction to Bellatrix, or something he's
already well on his way to agreeing to do.

It is particularily important, I think, that Snape's expression, when
he is making his choice, is "blank and unreadable", the expression
that we have been taught to associate with Occlumency. And how do you
do Occlumency? "Empty yourself of all emotion". Whatever decision
Snape is making here, it seems to be one he is *blocking* his emotions
about. I would say the motivator for his change, as Neri agrees, is
the beat where Narcissa says:

*
When Snape said nothing, Narcissa seemed to lose what little
self-restraint she still possessed. Standing up, she staggered to
Snape and seized the front of his robes. Her face close to his, her
tears falling onto his chest, she gasped, "You could do it. *You*
could do it instead of Draco, Severus. You would succeed, of course
you would, and he would reward you beyond all of us —"
*

Because that's when he starts putting elipses and dashes into his
dialogue and speaking quietly and doing a lot of looking into
Narcissa's eyes. Sure it could be the flattery, though I don't see
where the killer line is that Snape hadn't thought of before (omg! If
I killed D-dore, Voldemort would reward me!). His looking into
Narcissa's eyes after avoiding them for a lot of the scene could be
him absorbing her hotness. I tend to think there's a bit of
Legilimency here-- as an extremely upset person looking directly into
his eyes in close proximity, she's probably practically yelling in
head-- and that he's getting as much data as he can.

At this point, I'm not trying to prove DDM!Snape, so I won't go into
what I think the subtext here is. If you're an ESE!Snaper, you are
free at this point to say, ah! the subtext we have to take into
account is, Snape killing Dumbledore is already on the table, and this
is having an effect on his actions. If you're a DDM!Snaper, you can
say, ah, the subtext we have to take into account is, Snape killing
Dumbledore is already on the table, and this is having an effect on
his actions, whether he intends to actually go through with it or not.

I AM trying to shoot down Snape wanting Narcissa as being a
significant thread of either the UV plot or the Draco story, so I
think at least I've shown that this scene isn't particularily
suggestive in that direction, if you read the whole thing and not just
the bits that support it and cut the bits that interfere with it.


Whew! I'm a bit exhausted, but I'll soldier on over the next ridge
and cover some of the Draco stuff from Neri's post:


> > Sydney:
> > You will notice that Draco also avoids telling *his
> > friends*, Crabbe and Goyle, what's going on. Because he just might
> > start cracking up.
> >
>
> Neri:
> Draco has absolutely no logical reason to tell Crabbe and Goyle.

Sydney:

We're not talking about logical reasons. We're talking about the
common facor between all the people Draco doesn't tell what's going
on: his mother, his mentor, his friends-- the last one flagged in the
text with the interchange with Harry, and isn't necessary to expose
plot-wise at all. I think that's suggestive of something.

Neri:

> And here's another canon clue for you. Why does Draco cut his talk
> with Snape (the one Harry overhears after the slug club party) and
> storms out? What was the specific point in Snape's words that made
> Draco so angry he wouldn't continue the conversation? Want to place a
> bet first? Here it goes:
>
>
> ******************************************************
> HBP, Ch. 15, p. 324:
>
> "Then why not confide in me, and I can –"
>
> "I know what your up to! You are out to steal my glory!"
>
> There was another pause, then Snape said coldly, "you are speaking
> like a child. I quite understand that your father capture and
> imprisonment has upset you, but – "
>
> Harry had barely a second's warning; he heard Malfoy's footsteps under
> the door and flung himself out of the way just as it burst open;
> Malfoy was striding away down the corridor.
> *******************************************************
>
> Interesting. Snape mentions *Lucius* for the first time in that
> conversation, and Draco storms out within a second. And it wasn't the
> "your acting like a child" part, because Snape had made the point
> about Draco's clumsiness and foolishness several times before in that
> conversation and it didn't send Draco out.

Sydney:

Actually, I think you were right the first time-- it's the 'acting
like a child' part. To be told you're foolish and clumsy isn't going
to the heart of the equation; "You're acting like a child" is. And
it's capped off with a reference to the other father figure, his
actual father, that Draco is going through conflicted feelings about
for the same reason he's conflicted about Snape. Not torrid affairs
but good and bad:

*
"What does it matter" said Malfoy, "Defence against the Dark Arts--
it's all just a joke, isn't it, an act? Like any of us need
protecting against the Dark Arts--"
*

I mean, this sounds like a teenager starting to question The
Establishment to me.

Neri:

>Sounds to me like Draco has
> an ugly suspicion about Snape conspiring against his father, but for
> some reason it's too embarrassing to say out loud. But if these are
> Draco's suspicions, why won't JKR make them obvious so we know what
> Draco has against Snape? Maybe because it's a clue to something that
> is kept for Book 7?

Sydney:

Well, I mean, because I just think *it's so freaking obvious already*.
Draco's storyline is all about leading to this climax on the top of
the tower, where Dumbledore says to him, "You're not a killer, Draco",
and his wand wavers. It's about him separating himself from his
former role models and trying to be an adult-- "I don't need your
protection! It's my job, he gave it to me and I'm doing it!"-- and
cracking under the pressure and crying in bathrooms. You yourself
understand that this is the *story*. For some reason you seem to want
to make the *plot* a different thing than the story:


Neri:

> Draco's coming-of-age is a thematic, meta-thinking reason. I generally
> agree with it, but it cannot replace proximal reasons inside the plot.
> Even a coming-of-age teenager needs to have specific reasons to
> completely turn against a person he liked a lot for five years.
> Certainly in a mystery story where the readers are generally supposed
> to guess the hidden motivations of suspected characters by their
> behavior.

Sydney:

His hidden motivations pay off at the end of the book, when he has is
"moment of truth". The story presented him with a choice between
being a killer and not being a killer. He tried the killer part out
and it made him sick to his stomach. He was nearly killed himself by
Harry so he experienced it first hand from the victim angle. He shuts
himself off from his 'killer' family and mentors and friends. This
isn't meta-thinking, it's the story. If you shoehorn in a plot where
there's this whole other thing going on, that he's worried about his
killer teacher seducing his mother and he supports his killer father
instead, so he tries to be a killer for his killer boss without the
teacher's help, how is the payoff suddenly, "You're not a killer,
Draco"? This isn't a 'proximal reason inside the plot' curlicue on
the roof to concretize the story, it's an entire different building.

Neri:

> I certainly wouldn't try to convince Pippin that I know better than
> her because I'm a Lupin fan. If anything, being Lupin fan would make
> me a *less* objective judge of any Lupin theory, especially theories
> that Lupin is evil.

Sydney:

I brought up Draco's fan's opinion of his motivations because they
this theory isn't about Draco being or not being evil. It's about
what's going on inside Draco's head and his relationship with his
family, so naturally I would turn people who thought about the subject
a lot more than I did (I don't really think much about Draco). After
all, Draco does have a couple of murder attempts here so it's not like
Draco fans would be saying he's actually a double-agent for the light
side the whole book. I don't see any reason why a Draco fan would
subconsciously resist a juicy story like Snape going after Narcissa,
so I think if it was there in potentialitly they would be all over it.
I mean, it has sex and everything. There's also the fact that the
proof of a theory is in its predictive power. Draco fans have spent
years fantasizing about a story where Draco becomes a Death Eater and
it puts him through the wringer and he emerges not being able to do
it. And, lo, the story appears. In the book. Unless you highlight
all the stuff that's the Draco story and press DELETE, that's the story.


-- Sydney, OMG IS THAT THE TIME?! I gotta spend less time on this
board...