ACID POPS and Teenager Draco - Motivation?/Re: CHAPDISC:HBP19,Elf Tails

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 157584

> Alla:
> 
> I do think we are running into semantics - if you are just saying 
> that speculation should be labelled as such, I agree with you.

Magpie:
I actually don't think it's just semantics since this is rarely ever 
a problem.  If I were to say, "But in understanding Snape's reaction 
to the Pensieve you have to remember that he was in love with 
Lily..." people would predictably say, "What?  That's no where in 
canon for that yet!"  It wouldn't be an issue, it would just be a 
correction.  People naturally put it in terms of prediction and 
speculation: "I think it will be revealed that Snape loved Lily and 
if that is revealed it will add a different meaning to the Pensieve 
scene."  Also Snape/Lily hasn't been the actual story of a book so 
far.  


Honestly, I've never seen a storyline handled in fandom the way this 
particular thread of HBP is, where stuff is added or changed to the 
story as if it changes nothing.  There have been other storylines in 
canon where we got our information in a similar way to the way we 
get information in this storyline, and I can't remember anyone 
responding to it in this way.  When people blur the line between 
speculation or alternate storylines and canon I think there's a 
reason. Each book has a climax where the plot of Voldemort (or 
Sirius Black) comes to its climax.  I know there's a certain amount 
of fanwanking that sometimes goes on in GoF where people try to 
imagine how putting the TWT between Harry and the Portkey isn't as 
kooky as it seems, but that doesn't interfere with the actual story 
of the book--Harry's story--the way this does.

Alla:
 I 
> love speculating to my heart content, but I would not counter 
canon- 
> based argument with speculation without agreeing first that this 
is 
> much weaker argument, **but** IMO there is often no way to say 
where 
> does explicit canon ends and speculation ends and I absolutely 
would 
> not call extrapolation of the canon a weaker argument. IMO of 
course.

Magpie:
I think more often than not it's easy to say where explicit canon 
ends and speculation begins--it's there in the book, usually. When 
it comes to something like Draco and Voldemort, obviously we are 
left to imagine all scenes between them because although we know 
some happened, we didn't see them.  We know certain things that must 
be included in those meetings because that information is given to 
us in canon. That's filling in the blanks, as long as we don't 
create stuff that affects more than that.  With something like 
Snape/Lily it's clearly speculation--"I'm beginning to think we are 
going to learn X information and am already playing around with how 
that information changes canon."  This particular theory in this 
thread feels to me like it wants to change the meaning of the story 
while pretending to just fill in the blanks.

Alla: 
> Are you saying that LOLLIPOPS and ACCIDPOPS do not analyse the 
> storylines? I think they absolutely do - the ideas are inferred 
> based on what we actually read. The difference is IMO that the 
> predictions are made which may or may not be true, but they are 
> based on the text analysis IMHO, so if all you are arguing is that 
> Steve's argument is a theory, sure I will buy that, but I 
absolutely 
> would not call it a weak theory

Magpie:
I think LOLLIPOPS and to a much lesser extent ACCIDPOPS do analyze 
the storylines and that's why they're satisfying.  There's many ways 
that they fit into the way the story is going thematically and the 
kinds of things we've learned so far. What I referred to as "not 
analyzing canon" are theories where the pleasure of the theory lies 
in the storytelling of the theory part, not the clues themselves or 
the way it supports the storyline we've got--canon's of secondary 
importance. LOLLIPOPS discussion rarely if ever involves imagining 
scenes or a plot between Lily and Snape, it's attractive because of 
the way it fits the story with Harry and Snape.  Draco going to 
Voldemort first doesn't fit anything much at all in HBP, it just 
addresses personal dissatisfaction in Voldemort's plan.  
 
> Alla:
> 
> Um, I agree with you actually. I think they should, but the 
argument 
> can be easily made that they just did not need to talk about it ( 
> Narcissa is concerned with saving Draco's life, not with talking 
> about his idiocy, or maybe they just did not know. IMO.

Magpie:
I figured that would be the reply to that.:-)  But the story is made 
up of what is there.  If these were real people and we knew this was 
a possibility or had happened we could come up with reasons they 
didn't talk about this--they were too upset about Draco's impending 
death to criticize his actions.  But they're not real people; the 
situation is created on these pages.  That's the most compelling 
reason for them to talk about it. 


> Alla:
> 
> Right, so your objection against Steve's argument is that it is 
not 
> labeled a theory? Is that correct? What I was saying though and 
> still am is that reader gets to argue IMO any canon based 
> speculation precisely because the canon is not finished yet and 
that 
> does not mean at all that I am saying that everything will get 
> overturned, quite the contrary. I am just confused why are you so 
> sure that your interpretation is the right one, that is all.

Magpie:
A theory, yes, because nobody can stop anyone from imagining any 
theory they want, of course. Then we're talking about what JKR might 
or might not put into Book VII, which I haven't yet seen, and it's 
acknowledged as not yet canon.  This particularly theory isn't being 
argued much as a theory.  To compare it to ESE!Lupin, for instance, 
in that theory Pippin not only has a story for what's happened off-
stage that will be revealed to us eventually, she reads scenes with 
that information and makes a case for the different meaning that 
information brings.  This theory, imo, tries to slip that sort of 
thing under the radar.  It just seems odd to refer to Draco being 
chosen because Voldemort is punishing Lucius as an "interpretation" 
when it's the only information we're given in the story.  It seems 
like saying that thinking Voldemort went after Harry because of the 
Prophecy is just an interpretation. 
 
> > Magpie:
> > What is going on with Snape is presented as a mystery within 
> canon.  It's 
> > still a mystery at the end of HBP.  When people argue over 
whether 
> he's ESE, 
> > DDM or OFH they are guessing what canon will eventually tell us.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, sorry, IMO they ( and me) are not doing just that, they are 
> saying that such and such things **already** happened in the 
forest, 
> on the tower, etc.

Magpie:
But surely you know canon itself has presented Snape's motivations 
and true allegience as a mystery, having different characters in 
authority offer differ views, and that the question "Why do you 
trust Severus Snape?" has been left unanswered after being asked 
many times.  Surely there's no question we're supposed to be shocked 
and confused by what Snape does on the Tower and need more 
information?  (Okay, not exactly--presumably the author is assuming 
some portion of the audience will miss this and think either DDM or 
ESE is obvious, but that's part of any cliffhanger ending.)  There's 
no such question left hanging with Draco, no such conflicting 
information.  This alternate theory is only necessary to give 
Voldemort a more "sensible" motivation, though no one in canon 
suggests his motivations aren't already sensible for him and in fact 
the motivation in canon is far more in keeping with Voldemort's 
style and the previous books than the alternative theory.

> Alla:
> 
> No, sorry again, but Dumbledore does not do any such thing, not 
even 
> close, IMO. He says I trust Severus Snape. He never ever even says 
> that he gives Snape the kind of trust that soldiers in the war 
give 
> each other and that is I would expect to see from the fighters on 
> the same side. He never says "I trust Snape with my life", we 
don't 
> know what Dumbledore trusts Snape to do.

Magpie:
"I trust Severus Snape" is more trust than "I trust Snape with my 
life."  Snape is DD's double agent, his eyes in the enemy camp.  He 
even already has trusted his life to Snape in the beginning of the 
book, and appears to be trying to do that again at the end.  "I 
trust Severus Snape completely" I thought he said. He tells Draco 
he's mistaken in thinking Snape is working for Voldemort.  The 
mystery, of course, lying in the possibility that Dumbledore is 
wrong about this.  But the possibility is out there in the mouth of 
a smart character who knows more than we do.
 
> > Magpie:
> > It should be in some of the following places: Spinner's End, the 
> bathroom 
> > scene with Myrtle, the Tower scene and the scene between Draco 
and 
> Snape. 
> > These are the places where "what is the situation?" is 
presented.  
> To put it 
> > more broadly, the places it should have been are all somewhere 
> between the 
> > first page and the last page of the book.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, I am sorry again, but **you** think that it should have been 
> written there, for all we know JKR decided to leave it on 
backstage, 
> just as she has the backstory for the characters, she may not have 
> considered it to be important enough to write on page, thinking 
that 
> it would be obvious to deduce for the readers.

Magpie:
How is it "obvious to deduce" for readers when all we're told is 
that "Voldemort's chosen Draco for this assignment to punish 
Lucius."  Certain kinds of backstory are either in or out--Hermione 
is an only child in canon because JKR didn't put her sister in.  I 
think one of the problems here is like I said, this theory is trying 
to sneak in under the radar, pretending that it's an "unimportant" 
detail, so unimportant us readers are just supposed to figure it 
out.  But it is important, imo, and that's why this one storythread 
out of all others in canon, gets this treatment.

-m