What Came First: Task or Cabinet? - The Plan v1 & v2

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 157661

> > Carol responds:
> > Actually, no. Canon doesn't say that Voldemort's anger at Lucius
> leads
> > him to give Draco the task of killing Dumbledore. What we have is
> > Narcissa's speculation that that's the case and Snape's
> confirmation
> > that Voldemort is angry at Lucius.
> 
> Magpie:
> Yes, I understand where it comes from. And this kind of speculation
> from Narcissa, plus Snape and Dumbledore's confirmation of the fact
> that Voldemort is angry at Lucius is a perfectly acceptable way for
> JKR to give us this information while staying within the limits of
> the pov she uses. Just as it would have been acceptable to actually
> make it a question as to why he would give this task to Draco with
> people asking why, and the solution finally given to us. 

Alla:

But don't you see? That is one of the main reasons why I don't see 
your answer as absolute canon, but as canon at least open to 
interpretation. There is no **definite** confirmation of Voldemort 
being angry at Lucius as the reason for punishing Draco, IMO. I 
mean, again, I am not quite sure what I am arguing about, since I 
**am** on your side in this argument, I **do** believe that 
Voldemort punishing Draco was the reason for this wierd plan and I 
seriously doubt that Draco went to Voldemort with it.

I suppose all that I am arguing against is your absolute confidence 
( the way I read it) that this is a fact, while as Carol pointed out 
Snape does not even confirm Narcissa speculation that Voldemort is 
angry at Draco.

Sure, this **is** an acceptable way for JKR to give us this 
information, but it is also an acceptable way to spin ...erm another 
tale in front of us.

I mean, personally I am much more happier with everything that 
occurred in Spinner End being a truth. Do I think that it may not be 
so? I really do, I think that it sooo possible that many tales were 
told that day and where is the truth and where is the lie, I have no 
idea.

I mean, again who gets to decide that **not** confirming Draco's 
mission is enough to allege with absolute certainty that this was 
indeed **reason** for Draco's mission?



Magpie:
> As Alla said, sure we could find out all these people were wrong 
or 
> lying for some reason in the next book. It's still physically 
> possible for JKR to do that. But within this book the question of 
why
> Voldemort would give this kid this task has only one answer
> offered in the scene that lays out the groundwork. Obviously 
> everyone is free to not accept that answer just as they can reject 
> any information in the books so far.

Alla:

I would be much much more confident  that this was indeed ** the 
only answer** given in the books if I could make Snape and Narcissa 
testify under oath, you know? :)

Right now, I see a potential for backstory Steve came up with to 
lurk in the shadows of that answer, which is IMO does look shaky 
enough.

 
> Magpie:
> No, they don't know about that. And that's why Draco would need to
> tell Dumbledore that at the end, when he told him about figuring 
out
> the Cabinet. 

Alla:

Why? I am sorry again, but why does Draco need to tell it to 
Dumbledore? Isn't that your opinion as a reader that this is the way 
storyline should go? What if JKR decided that it is **not** 
important enough to be in the book?

After all she told us that she has backstories for the characters , 
but after book 7 we will have all the backstory we need? IMO that 
means that a lot of things which we may want to know are not 
important enough and she is leaving them up to our imagination? IMO 
of course.


> Magpie:
> In a nutshell: Provide a bit of canon where this set of events--
> the part where Draco went to Voldemort with a Plot to get the DEs 
> into Hogwarts and Voldemort turned it around on him and made into 
a 
> double plot of getting DEs into a different thing. Actual words 
from 
> canon referring to this. Not an argument that as long as nobody 
says 
> it didn't happen it couldn't. Not an outline of how it could work 
> given when Draco heard Montague's story and when Spinner's End 
> happens. Not explanations for how logical this would be if this 
were 
> the story of Voldemort the great strategist instead of Draco's 
> story. Not individual explanations for each scene of this story 
> about how nothing in that scene could refer to it either.  Not 
> musings on how can we really ever know anything going on in the 
> story.
>
Alla:

I cannot do it, but if you cannot accept  the outline of how Draco 
could have learned about Cabinet and went to Voldemort, knowing that 
he proclaimed revenge on Harry and could not stand Dumbledore since 
CoS and was thrilled to be in Voldemort's service at the beginning, 
then I am not sure I can accept with absolute certainty Narcissa' 
speculation about Voldemort being angry at Lucius as only the reason 
for the plan.

Come to think of it, why Narcissa speculates, if Voldemort did come 
to their house , would not she have heard everything that was said?

Isn't that another possible hint that Draco went to Voldemort, not 
Voldemort to Draco?

 My head hurts :)

JMO,

Alla