Snape on the tower (Was: Cohesion)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 162317

Carol earlier:
> > I agree that he couldn't save the wandless, weakened Dumbledore,
who would be killed by the DEs if not by the poison if neither Draco
nor Snape killed him, and that Dumbledore wanted Snape to save himself
rather than be killed by the UV or the DEs, as he surely would have
been fighting against four DEs, one of them a ravening werewolf who
didn't need to transform to rip people apart with his teeth. Skilled
as Snape is, he can't duel and use Legilimency on four opponents at once.
>
> Quick_Silver:
> I disagree that Snape couldn't have saved Dumbledore on Tower (in
the context of their being to many Des). <snip evidence for
Dumbledore's skill>
On the Tower we have 3 wizards (and the brother sister
> pair are not exactly amazing duelists...I think Harry beats the
> brother twice during the chase sequence?), a werewolf, and Draco.
> What's more the Death Eaters, even the werewolf, are described as
> being cowed by Snape. Snape's supposed to be a master of Defense
> against the Dark Arts, skilled at non-verbal magic, has his own
> spells (including Sectumsempra), the Death Eaters are fixated on
> Dumbledore (Amycus's eyes and wand don't even leave Dumbledore when
> he talks to Snape), and the Death Eaters seem genuinely intimidated
> by Snape.
>
> So Snape doesn't have to duel the Death Eaters on the Tower he could
> simply crush them. It's not like their expecting him to turn on them.
>
> Having said all of that I agree that Snape couldn't save Dumbledore
> on the Tower...I just don't think that the Death Eaters had anything
> to do with it (in the sense that they were a physical threat...IMO
> they represent the risk of Snape being exposed). I put it more to
> having a plan with Dumbledore, the UV, Draco's moral journey, and
> Harry being there.
>
> It's just to me by saying that Snape couldn't have won on the Tower
> you knock the underlying emotional context of that scene IMO. Snape
> holding back on the Tower is more emotional because he wants to save
> Dumbledore (his mentor) but he can't because of the cause, the plot,
> the greater good, perhaps the UV, etc, etc. And that then explains
> why he freaks out when Harry calls him a coward...Snape just made
the hardest choice of his life and here's Harry calling him a coward.
>
> If Snape couldn't have won on the Tower then there's no real choice
> involved...die pointlessly or kill Dumbledore and continue with the
> plan. It just doesn't strike me as being as deep as Snape being able
> to win on the Tower although you may disagree.

Carol responds:
I don't think that Dumbledore's skill is evidence of Snape's equal
power, and I don't think that Harry made a particularly great showing,
hitting one DE in the back, having to be rescued from Fenrir Greyback,
and tripping up the brother and sister only to be Crucio'd by
(apparently) the big blond DE and rescued by Snape. None of which is
intended to denigrate Snape's skill; he certainly handled Harry
effortlessly, and IMO he's the best DADA teacher Harry has ever had,
if Harry would only realize that. But even Snape can only, AFAWK,
perform Legilimency on one DE at a time, and even he had trouble with
Fluffy (true, the plot demanded that) because he could only watch one
head at a time. More important, IMO, the moment DDM!Snape revealed his
true allegiance and started to defend Dumbledore (who could not have
been saved anyway, IMO) Snape would have died, either killed by the
DEs or by the Vow, at least if Ron is right (you break it; you die).

But my point was that his choice was between dying bravely but
futilely along with Dumbledore and Draco and Harry or killing DD
himself, making sure to get his body off the tower so Fenrir would
have no reason to stay and then getting Draco and the DEs off the
tower before Harry had time to rush out and fight them. True, Harry did
rush out, but not in time to fight them. The one DE that he actually
Petrified was hit in the back.

I absolutely agree that Snape's choice required immense courage
despite appearances. I just think that the choice between what is
right and what is easy is not what Harry thinks it is: it was a choice
between a seemingly honorable but actually pointless death and a
seemingly dishonorable but actually courageous and necessary saving of
himself, without which Draco and Harry would also have been killed or
kidnapped. If Snape could have defeated the DEs on the tower, as
perhaps he could have if it weren't for the UV, then you're right that
the irony and the courage are even greater, but I don't think he could
have survived. I think the UV would have struck him down, and I think
that's what Dumbledore was reminding him on the tower. "Severus,
please. Do whatever is necessary to save yourself and these boys. Keep
your vow!"

Carol, who hopes we'll see Snape taking on multiple DEs in Book 7 and
that you'll be proven correct about his abilities when the vow is not
in play