The DDM or ESE Snape debate Continues!!(was:Re: A couple of little theories!)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 162323

> >>Jenni from Alabama: 
> I truly feel that LV has Snape 'save' Harry so it will look like he 
> is really on the Order's side. The whole while he is doing LV's 
> bidding.

Betsy Hp:
Woot! A Snape debate!! (The character of Snape is one of the saving 
graces of this series, IMO.) ::rubs hands together gleefully::

Well, Carol answered this one pretty well I think.  As she pointed 
out, Voldemort wasn't in any position to give Snape orders regarding 
Harry and the treatment thereof.  And while you put the word "save" 
in quotation marks, the fact is without Snape, Harry would have died 
in PS/SS.  And without Snape, Harry, Luna, Ginny, Neville, Hermione, 
and Ron would have died in OotP.  So the saving has been actual, no 
matter the motivation. 

> >>Jenni from Alabama: 
> Harry is not the one that shows instant animosity towards Snape.    
> Snape is cruel to Harry right off the bat.

Betsy Hp:
This is one of those tomayto-tomahto things.  You call Snape's 
opening scene cruel.  I'd call it hard or tough.  I do think Snape 
went a bit too far, but not to the level of cruelty, IMO.  (And yes, 
I know that folks disagree and feel that what Snape did equals 
pulling the legs off kittens.  But I'm just throwing out my opinion. 
<g>)

> >>Jenni from Alabama responds:
> Really? Show me where any of the Trio are the first to start up 
> things with any of the Slytherins! They always are defending 
> themselves (or others). They even try to avoid confrontations with 
> Draco and his bullies.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Good lord, the amount of times Draco gets hit from behind and in 
greater numbers!.  There's the train scene in GoF.  There's the 
quidditch pitch scene in OotP.  There's the laughing over the ferret 
scene in GoF.  There's the infamous near murder of Montague in OotP.  
I do agree that Draco does *say* mean things, but it's Harry and 
friends doing the physical attacks.  And never (that I can recall) in 
honest to goodness self-defense.  (Except the bathroom scene in HBP.)

Honestly, that Gryffindor is hailed as the house of chilvary is yet 
more proof that chilvary is dead.  (Except for maybe Neville;  I love 
Neville. <g>)

> >>Jenni from Alabama: 
> And they don't condone cruelty, especially Hermione.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh dear... Hermione...  I think she's one of the cruelist characters 
in the Potterverse.  Heading down a path to become the next 
Umbridge.  Um... I'm quite sure tons of you will disagree.  But there 
it is. (My opinion only here.)

Also, regarding the ferret scene: When I was a very small child (five 
or six) my family toured a place somewhere (Africa? South America? 
England?) where there were still dents on the floor made by people 
dropped on the floor as a form of torture.  I had nightmares for a 
while and have never forgotten it (though obviously some details were 
lost <g>).  So I have a different take on a scene that involves a 
known sadist throwing a child repeatedly against a stone floor 
because he's mad at the child's father.

That Harry and Ron weren't horrified by it is I think only explained 
by the fact that it was a ferret squealing in pain rather than a real 
boy.  Both boys were young and sheltered, so I don't think they 
recognized how far Fake!Moody was going.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > You mean, the exact hatred and revulsion Harry was feeling (for 
> > himself) as he force-fed Dumbledore poison in the scene just 
> > before this one?  That look of hatred and revulsion? ::grins      
> > madly, because I really, really love that parallel::

> >>Jenni from Alabama responds:
> I don't see it that way. I think Snape really is a bad guy.

Betsy Hp:
I was referencing the exact word choice used:

"Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the 
goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth..." [HBP scholastic hardback 
p.571]

"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and 
hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. [ibid p.595]

So a parallel is presented in canon.  Whether is means anything will 
depend on Book 7 of course.  But I think it's fairly significant.
 
> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I'm calling for a canon check on this one: when does Snape *ever* 
> > comment to Harry about Lily being a mudblood?
> > <snip>

> >>Jenni from Alabama: 
> OK, you asked for Canon, here it is.
> <snip of canon> 
> My mistake was that it wasn't said TO Harry, it was said to James. 
> Harry just heard it in the pensieve.
> But Snape did refer to/call Lily a Mudblood. She was defending him 
> and he still trashed her! Talk about low.

Betsy Hp:
What's significant, IMO, is that there's nothing to suggest that 
Snape (adult Snape) has a blood prejudice.  That he did in his youth 
is shown by his joining the Death Eaters in the first place.  But as 
an adult there's nothing to suggest that his change of heart isn't 
genuine (at least philosophically).

As to trashing Lily, there are so many things going on in that scene, 
including a large amount of flirting between Lily and James.  There 
were a lot of reasons for Snape to try and hurt Lily, despite her 
defending him.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > It's the sexy beast thing.  Snape is too darn cool to completely 
> > write off.  
> > <snip>
> > Even Harry can't completely write off Snape!

> >>Jenni from Alabama:
> Not until he kills Dumbledore. That is when I write him off too. 
> Though the voice whispers, I don't see how in the heck Snape can 
> fully redeem himself in the last book. He can atone for SOME of it, 
> but not all. Never could make up for killing Dumbledore! 
> There's that dang voice again! I wish it would just shut up!

Betsy Hp:
Just to add to that little voice... <eg>, what if Dumbledore was a 
horcrux?  What if (as has been theorized on this list**) in 
destroying the ring a bit of Voldemort took up residence in 
Dumbledore's dead hand?

As twisted as it might seem, I honestly think that killing Dumbledore 
is *part* of Snape's atonement; an important step on Snape's path to 
redemption.  The question for me is, will Snape ever forgive 
Dumbledore for making him go through with it?

Betsy Hp (echoing Carol in joy that Snape is back on this list <g>)

** see this thread for details on that theory:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/156547