OFH, Life-debt and Snape/Lily-no-way

[susanmcgee48176]

No: HPFGUIDX 162356

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scarah <scarah at ...> wrote:
>
> Sarah:
> 
> I know these aren't strictly new ideas, but I thought I would give 
old
> OFH a little airplay since he's been so upstaged lately by his two
> more popular counterparts.  :)  Also, I'm not sure anyone has 
pointed
> out how these three ideas work together (sorry if they have).
> 
> I think that in the end, Snape will be more helpful to the whitehats
> than the blackhats.  I think he will have his own reasons for doing
> so.  I think that Dumbledore is taking a little license when he says
> he trusts Snape, and he really means that he knows Snape's true
> motivations and therefore can predict and "trust" that Snape's
> behavior will ultimately be more helpful to the good guys.
> 
> (Just to get this out of the way, I totally think Dumbledore was
> planning to die before HBP even began.  Snape acted the way 
Dumbledore
> "trusted" that he would, because Snape had to for his own reasons,
> which existed long before the UV.  I think that Snape used a
> combination of Legilimency and/or good old fashioned BS on the Black
> sisters, and then had no problem making the UV since he knew it was
> nothing he didn't already have to do anyway, for strategic 
advancement
> of the Order.)
> 
> Dumbledore says that Snape owed James a debt ever since the prank.  
A
> lot of people latch on to the fact that he never calls it a "Life 
Debt
> [tm]," but he calls it a debt which is good enough for me.  What
> happens if a wizard owes another wizard a life debt, and takes 
action
> (like passing on the prophecy) that leads to their death?  We don't
> know, but since the introduction of the UV and its consequences, I'm
> willing to believe it is something bad.
> 
> 'You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he 
realised
> how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it
> to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he 
returned
> -'  -Dumbledore, HBP
> 
> I'll bet it was.  I submit that it was the impending consequences of
> the life debt that sent him back to Dumbledore.  Voldemort would be 
no
> help, as the life debt magic would be concerned with concepts like
> honor and reciprocation, which Voldemort doesn't understand.  Snape
> went back to the only wizard he thought might be able to somehow
> subvert his contract.  This was successful, but of course Dumbledore
> couldn't dissipate the life debt completely, he either stalled the
> consequences or more likely somehow transferred the debt to Harry's
> account, rather than James.  Since Dumbledore knows that a) Harry is
> the anti-Voldemort device and b) Snape can't let anything happen to
> Harry or face dire consequences, Dumbledore can trust what Snape 
will
> do.
> 
> This completely negates any need for Snape/Lily, which I've never
> understood anyway for several reasons.  The main support for it 
seems
> to be that Snape and Lily both did well in Potions class.  By that
> standard, Draco and Hermione should be getting engaged any day now.
> The second most common support is that it is Snape's "Worst" memory
> because he was mean to Lily, which seems to me a pretty big leap of
> faith.  A lot of bad things happened to Snape in that scene, and we
> didn't even get to watch the whole thing.  It seemed like it was 
only
> about to get worse at the end there.
> 
> The only question left is why tell Lily to stand aside?  Killing her
> may have risked screwing up Voldemort's Horcrux plans, but that's
> immaterial since if that were the case he would have already
> pre-planned sparing Lily.  If a Death Eater indeed attempted to
> bargain for Lily, Peter has got my vote.  He appears to have been 
even
> more obsessed with James than Snape was, why not want to carry off 
his
> wife as a spoil of war?  Also, I've only seen one Death Eater 
finish a
> job for Voldemort and actually manage to receive a reward as 
promised,
> and that was Peter with his silver hand.
> 
> (Sure I'm probably on my own here, but maybe there'll be a very 
small
> role call :) )
> Sarah
>
Sarah, you're not on your own..I agree with much of what you say...
The whole idea that Snape had a hopeless passion for Lily is made up 
out of whole cloth. JKR shudders at the idea of Snape being married 
or having a partner. It's a big stretch for which there is no real 
evidence.

I think that the question -- why did Voldemort spare Lily is an 
incredibly important one. She didn't need to die? When has LV ever 
cared who "needed" to die or who didn't? "Kill the spare", and so 
much for Cedric Diggory. Why kill James and Harry but not Lily? Is he 
sexist - -believing that Lily as a woman would not be much of a 
threat? That's possible, given his contempt for his own mother. 
(Interesting, sons of mothers who are mistreated by their fathers 
either end up as really bad batterers (in my experience as a 
professional in the field of domestic violence), OR they go the other 
way and become heros -- it's interesting that both Snape and Riddle 
had fathers who mistreated their mothers. Yes, Voldemort's dad was 
the victim of a love potion, but he could have been decent, provided 
for mom and his son, and then had nothing more to do with her.)

But I don't think that was the deal. There's something about Lily and 
Petunia that we don't know about yet that will be significant.

I also believe that Dumbledore had told Snape that Snape would have 
to kill him -- Dumbledore was dying anyway, and in this way Snape is 
established without question in Voldemort's good graces. 
Snape stops whomever put the Cruciatus Curse on Harry at the end of 
the Half Blood Prince, and tells them to leave Harry alone -- that 
they have orders from the Dark Lord. But given that Snape hates 
Harry, and oh yes, he hates him, why not ignore those orders? After 
all, Snape has been ignoring orders when he kills Dumbledore. It's 
Draco who is supposed to do it, but Snape, unlike the other DE, does 
not even give Draco a moment to try.

However, I do not think that even IF Snape was acting on Dumbledore's 
orders, that that means he's on the side of the OoP..or that he's a 
good guy. He's a double agent. You never really know until the end 
about double agents, and they've been known to change sides whenever 
it looks as if one side is going to win.

Snape is a sophisticated Peter Pettigrew, perhaps. He took the job at 
Hogwarts to secure the protection of Albus Dumbledore when the other 
DEs were going to Azkaban - a truly horrific place where most go 
insane and die. He returns to Voldemort (perhaps) when it looks as if 
Voldemort is once again regaining power. We may not know until the 
last where his true loyalty lies -- or he may be the type of person 
who does not have true loyalty, just expediency.

The most compelling argument to me about Snape being basically self 
centered and nasty come from JKR herself, who is surprised that there 
are those amongst us who still think Snape might be a good guy. He is 
vile, cruel and abusive. His verbal abuse of Harry, Neville and 
Hermione, his total unfairness as a teacher, his abuse of authority, 
his hatred of Sirius and his willingness to give ANYONE up to have 
their soul sucked out is pretty awful.

I believe in Albus Dumbledore, so I want to believe he had a good 
reason to trust Snape, and that Snape will redeem himself.

Perhaps he will inadvertantly save Harry, or do something that 
results in Lord Voldemort's demise...clearly, he will have a major 
role to come yet.

Susan