CHAPDISC: HBP26, The Cave

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 162368

---  "zgirnius" <zgirnius at ...> wrote:
>
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: 
> Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, 
> Chapter 26, The Cave
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
> 
> 1)	Dumbledore is described a `hampered' by his 
> injured hand during the climb down, and is described 
> as swimming like a much younger man, shortly thereafter.
> Thoughts?
> 

bboyminn:

Well, swimming is actually a very safe slow stress sport,
especially for people with handicaps. Of course, that
assumes a basic level of fitness. Now, regarding fitness,
keep in mind  Hogwart's many staircases and sloping
lawns. Anyone living at Hogwart is going to be reasonably
fit. Also, it may simply be that Dumbledore is a good
swimmer. People who are skilled trained swimmers make
swimming look unnaturally easy.

What I'm saying here is that I don't think there is any
significants to Dumbledores agility in the water, beyond
it needing to set a contrast between when Dumbledore
enters the cave and when he leaves.


> 2)In the antechamber as he seeks the hidden entrance, 
> Dumbledore murmurs in a strange tongue Harry does not
> understand. Any ideas on this language and how 
> Dumbledore came to know it? 
> 

bboyminn: 

Others have speculated that this is certainly human 
language, though I'm not convinced of that. It could be
Gnomish, Gobblygook, some fairy/elfin, or some other 
non-human magical language. 

That said, I will point out that most magical language is
in some ancient, and probably dead, language. But what
people seem to forget is that Latin is not the only
ancient language in the world. In South Asia Sanskrit
is probably the magical language. In the Middle East,
perhaps Aramaic is the magical language. Certainly
China and Africa have their own individual ancient 
languages that act as the foundation of their magic.

Dumbledore seems to have traveled the world. For example,
I doubt the Dumbledore found Fawkes the Phoenix in a pet
store. He probably traveled to the area of the world 
where Phoenix are found and he and Fawkes struck up a 
friendship. So, my point is a genius +150 year old 
wizard who has dedicated his life to education, has
most likely taken the time to study magical language
and spells from other parts of the world. 

I suspect the magic, associated spells, and language of
each area of the world has its advantages and 
disadvantages. Perhaps, Dumbledore is using a foriegn
language that is more suited to this type of magic.


> 3)Dumbledore insists on using his own blood to open 
> the hidden archway, though Harry offers his own instead,
> because "your blood is  worth more than mine." What does
> he mean by this?
> 

bboyminn:

Hummm... I find this question difficult. Others have
speculated that perhaps Dumbledore did not want Harry
to reveal himself to Voldemort by leaving blood on the
scene. I guess that's possible and even logical, but
still I'm not completely convinced.

It could be that Dumbledore is dropping a subtle clue.
Other have speculated that 'blood' in some form rather
than magic, is the key to defeating Voldemort. In this
case, Dumbledore may have just been dropping a reminder
of the importance of Harry's blood.

It is also possible that he didn't want Harry distracted
by the trama of having to give his own blood. Indeed as
they exit, Harry does not have to suffer any new trama to
give blood; he uses blood from and existing injury.

For now, that's the idea I'm sticking with, Dumbledore
simply want to spare Harry the trama, distraction, and
mental grief of having to give his own blood.


> 4)Dumbledore heals the cut he has made by passing his 
> wand once over it, and Harry is reminded of Snape's 
> sung/chanted spell with  which he healed Draco. Is this
> the nonverbal version, or something else? Why does 
> Rowling choose to mention this similarity explicitly 
> by having Harry note it?
> 

bboyminn:

I don't think there is any actual connection between 
Snape's healing spell and Dumbledore's beyond that fact 
that they are both healing spells.

But this does represents something that has always bothered
me about Hogwarts curriculum, no First Aid classes in a
world where basic healing charms would certainly come in
very usefull. Lupin splints Ron damaged leg so he can use
it again. Snape heals deep cuts. Dumbledore heals his own
wounds.

Now to some extent, I can see it not being introduced too
early. Madame Pomphrey wouldn't want kids attempting to 
heal themselves and avoiding coming to her for help. But 
on the other hand, considering the wild woolly and 
dangerous world they live in, a few healing spells would 
go a long way. 

So, this could be the implanting in Harry's mind that if
he is going to survive, along with curse breaking and
dueling, it might be helpful to learn a few healing 
spells. Beyond that, I'm not sure.


> 5) "Age is foolish and forgetful when it underestimates
> youth
" Dumbledore says of Voldemort, as he explains 
> the boat would only hold one adult wizard. Is there any
> special significance to these words?
>

bboyminn:

I think it is just good general philosophy. On a 
superfical level, it ingraciates JKR to her readers, and
reminds them that they, the younger readers, should be
taken seriously, and that older readers should remember
that children are deeper than adults give them credit for.

On another level, powerful wizard that Dumbledore is, I 
think it is a somewhat melancholy reminder to him self 
that he is past his prime. The great adventures and 
achievements fall to the young and the brave, not to 
the old and the wise. 

On a completely different level, I think it is a 
reflection of Voldemort's arogance. He can't imagine that
a young uneducated unqualified wizard could or would 
possibly get past his enchantments. He can't conceive of
being seriously challenged by a child. That certainly has
lead to a lot of problems in Voldie's life.


> 6) Is Dumbledore too quick to conclude the potion must
> be drunk?  Why or why not?
>

bboyminn:

Thing is Dumbledore is likely a master of nonverbal magic,
and he is also very old, wise, and experienced in the 
various ways that magicians hide and protect things. Look 
at the enchantments that protect the Socerer's Stone; 
classic wizard's protection, riddles and puzzles and 
games. 

It seems that this is an ancient game that wizards play.
They want to protect something, but at the same time, 
rather than make the protection iron-clad, they make it
a game, a challenge. In a sense, they want the opposing
wizard to have a chance of achieving his goal if he is
wiser, more clever, and more powerful than the wizard
doing the protecting. It's not so much about protecting
what needs protecting, but a contest between wizards to
see who is more clever. 

Voldemort certainly put some clever protections in place,
and only the most outstanding wizard could possible stand
a chance of by-passing it. Each completed challenge seems
to trigger a new far more difficult obstical. 

Minus a bunch of rambling on my part, I think Dumbledore
understands how the /game/ is played, and he tried all 
the standard methods of vanishing, summoning, etc... and
was left with one fairly reasonable conclusion.

 
> 7)	Is the potion a poison? Why or why not?
> 

bboyminn:

I think it's /poison-ish/. Though it is not clear what the
intended /normal/ course was for the poison. Persumable it
was slow acting since Dumbledore lasted so long, and based
on Dumbledore's conclusion that Voldemort would want to 
question who ever managed to get past it. Yet it is 
unclear whether is was a disabling potion or a slow acting
deadly poison.

Though there is an element that confuses me. The potion,
once the basic mission is completed, makes you want water,
yet prevents you from getting water by any means other 
than disturbing the lake. Disturbing the lake causes the
Inferi to rise. If Dumbledore is right is his thought that
Voldemort would want to keep any intruder alive, then 
exactly what were the Inferi going to do? Were they going
to hold the intruder captive indefinitely until Voldemort 
decided to look in? Do they have some way of alerting 
Voldemort that intruders are in the Cave? 

Dumbledore manages to thwart them so we don't get to see
what Voldemort envisioned as 'normal' cirumstances, yet I
can't help wondering what the overal game plan was?



> 8) What do Dumbledore's experiences drinking the potion
> tell us  about him? What is the meaning of his words 
> and actions?
>

bboyminn:

I'm not sure there are any hidden or secret meanings to 
the things Dumbledore is saying. I think his statements 
are simply meant by the author to set the mood of the 
event. They are simply 'illustrations' of the extent to
which Dumbledore is affected by and is struggling against
the potion.

 
> 9) Dumbledore warns Harry not to touch the water both
> as he gets into the boat and as he disembarks. Why do
> you think he does this? 
> 

bboyminn:

Once he knows that Inferi are about, I think he quickly
realizes that any disturbance of the water will cause them
to rise and attack. I really don't think it is any more
complicated than that.


> 10) What do you think about the fact that Harry *did*
> use the water? Do you believe the lake water had any 
> effect on Dumbledore?
> 

bboyminn:

I think using lake water was part of Voldemort's plan. If
you get past all the other enchantments, and if you manage
to get to the island, and if you manage to survive 
drinking the potion, and if you can still function, then
you have a powerful thirst for water yet no means of 
getting it. I think the Lake water revives you slightly
but it also invokes the Inferi. 

Each successfully complete obstical triggers the next
obstical. I don't think the lake water compounded the
existing poison, in fact it seemed to revive Dumbledore,
but it also triggered the Inferi.


> 11) What did you think of Harry's attempts to fight 
> the Inferi?
> 

bboyminn:

Pretty sad, especially after Dumbledore told him what
to do if the Inferi should rise. All his attempts to 
attack them forgets one crucial point, Inferi are aleady
dead. Cuts, pain, and other assorted actions have no
meaning to them. The Petrificus Totalis was somewhat
effective, but there seem to be lots of Inferi, and 
the goal was not to disable a few, but to hold them all
back.

It was understandable though. Harry was in a panic, 
worried about Dumbldore, and that lead him to forget
Dumbledore's instruction. It also probably shows
that Harry wasn't paying attention in Snape's class
when Inferi were discussed.


> 12)Dumbledore tells Harry, once they are walking along
> the lakeshore, "The protection was
after all
well 
> designed," and asserts one person could not have 
> defeated it alone. What do you think he meant? How do 
> you suppose the mysterious RAB managed to defeat the 
> protection?
> 

bboyminn:

I think a lot of things are happening here. On one hand,
he is acknowledging that Voldemort does indeed know how
to play the /game/. Damn few wizards could have walked 
away for that place.

As others have hinted, I think it is a subtle reminder
to Harry that he can't do it all alone. At some point,
he has to decide who he trusts, and he has to rely on 
them for help.

And, of course, I think it was the setup, the first clue
as to how R.A.B. managed to overcome the enchantments.
Even if RAB is Regulus, as many of us suspect, and even
if he had inside information on how to get past the
enchantments, he still needed an accomplice. Many 
suspect that accomplice was Kreacher, and if Harry 
somehow discovers this, it may lead him to the Locket.



> 13) Dumbledore's final words in the chapter are clearly
> a passing of the torch, in retrospect, and mirror his 
> words to Harry in "Horace Slughorn," when he tells 
> Harry he need not worry about being attacked because 
> "You are with me." Does Dumbledore know or suspect what
> he will find back at Hogwarts? And, is Harry prepared to 
> take up the fight?
>

bboyminn:

Yes, a clear symbolic passing of the torch. But I think
it has more too do with what I said before, powerful and
clever wizard that he is, Dumbledore knows his days are
gone. That the great adventures, great battles, and great
accomplishments are for the young. His role has faded from
doer of great deeds to adviser to the doer of great deeds.
That's a natural progression in life.

I don't think it is an indication of what specifically he
will find back at Hogwarts, but more an indication that
he is acknowledged the change in his role in life. In a
sense, he is acknowleding that Harry is the great hero of
the modern day.

Is Harry prepared to take on that role? Yes and No. I've
said before that it is easy for we the readers to a
acknowledge that Harry's greatest weapon is 'Love' and
that in the end, it will be 'love' that saves him, not
knowledge of magic. 

Yet, I repeat once again, from Harry's perspective, how 
can he use that? What is he suppose to do, louge around
eating pasties waiting for the final battle then run up
to Voldie and give him a hug and a kiss? That, from
Harry's perspective would be a doomed strategy, even if
ultimately it did work.

There is so much that Harry needs to know; curse breaking,
dueling, Occlumency/Legilimency, nonverbal spells and LOTS
OF THEM, plus tons of knowledge about how and where to 
find the Horcruxes and what to do with them once he finds
them. 

Even if Harry has the /potential/ to defeat Voldemort, 
that potential is useless unless it is cultivated and 
refined to a practical level. Again, look at this from 
Harry's perspective, not the prespective of a reader.
Harry needs to gain a lot of ground in the next books.
He needs to work incredably hard if he has any chance
of facing Voldemort and surviving. 

 
> 14) Does the chapter title "The Cave" have any special
> significance? Is its setting in a cave important? 
> (Important events at the ends of PS/SS, CoS, and PoA 
> involve subterranean settings, as well).
> 

bboyminn:

I don't think there is any significants to this being in 
a cave other than underground locations have a generally
creepy eery feeling to them. They are good locations for
mysterious happenings. But I don't see any hidden meaning
in them.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn