Snape on the tower (Was: Cohesion)

[Neri]

No: HPFGUIDX 162379

> Betsy Hp:
> I think you're giving Snape the benefit of too much prescience.  
> Snape had no idea what he was going to find.  He just knew there were 
> Death Eaters inside Hogwarts (something I think neither he nor 
> Dumbledore ever imagined happening) and that something big was going 
> down.

> Pippin:
> And how would Snape know that Draco is on the tower? 

Neri:
Umm, this was precisely my point. Snape only knows there are DEs in
the castle, and there's a battle going on. So how come all his actions
include of neutralizing and/or leaving behind all his comrades?  

> Pippin:
> He knows that Death Eaters have succeeded in invading the
> castle and that some of them must be on the tower, 

Neri:
Actually it's not even certain he knows they are in the tower. It
depends on whether McGonagall sends Flitwick *after* the DEs ran up
the tower, and if so, whether Flitwick includes this detail in his
report to Snape. More probably Snape only knows that the DEs are in
the seventh floor.  

> Pippin:
but whether Draco
> is there or not he cannot know. For all Snape knows, Draco is dead
> already -- he is only vowed to protect Draco to the best of his
> ability, so if Draco has died despite Snape's best efforts, Snape is
> off the hook for protecting Draco, and maybe for carrying out
> the task as well, since it can no longer prove necessary in order to
> save Draco.
> 

Neri:
This depends on your interpretation of the Vow. My point (see below)
is that Snape's actions from the moment Flitwick bursts into his
office only make sense if his goal is to save his life from the terms
of the Vow at any cost, or at least that The Plan was to save him from
dying because of the Vow.



> Pippin:
> But if Snape doesn't know where Draco is, his
> best effort requires him to find out, and that means he doesn't
> have time to wait for reinforcements to arrive, nor can he linger
> to help the contingent fighting at the base of the tower. 
>

Neri:
He doesn't have to wait or linger for anything. On the contrary, it
would have taken him *less* time not to Stupefy Flitwick, and then not
telling Hermione and Luna to take care of him. If instead he had just
started running to the seventh floor without saying anything, Flitwick
would have decided what to do with Hermione and Luna, and then joined
the battle again. 

Regarding the magical barrier, all he has to do is reducto the ceiling
after he passes through, and then the rest could follow him. Still
takes less time than telling Luna and Hermione to take care of Flitwick.

> Pippin:
> Obviously whether Snape followed it or not there was a plan, or
>  Dumbledore's 'Severus please' was just a craven plea for mercy, 
> which is ridiculous, IMO.

Neri:
Rather weak evidence for a plan, IMO. It could also mean "Severus,
please don't rip your soul" or "Severus, please remember your Debt"

> Betsy Hp:
> I boggle at this, Neri.  You're suggesting Snape should have taken a 
> sixteen year old and a fifteen year old into *battle*?!?  Please keep 
> in mind that the older girl barely survived her brush with Death 
> Eaters last year. I can't imagine a more irresponsible move than to 
> bring two children along to "assist" in an Order vs. Death Eater 
> throw-down.

Neri:
Yes, yes, we all know how responsible and caring is our dear Snapy
deep in his heart <g>, while the cruel and irresponsible Lupin,
McGonagall, Flitwick, Tonks and Bill allow three poor kids, which had
barely survived that same incident last year, fight at their side.
(BTW, you are incorrect about the age. Hermione is seventeen, a witch
of age, and also a prefect and very good at DADA. Luna is sixteen or
nearly that). But even so, why doesn't our responsible Snapy say
something like: "run and call Hagrid" or "shoot a red flare out of the
window. The aurors at Hogsmeade will see it" or "use the fire in my
office to contact the Ministry" or "inform Madam Pomfrey in the
Hospital Wing" or even just "make sure the students don't leave their
dormitories". None of these would have taken him more than ten seconds.


> Betsy Hp:
> I agree. Considering the game both Snape and Dumbledore seem to be 
> playing I think Snape probably felt the less players around, the 
> better.  There's a possibility he can talk the Death Eaters out of 
> Hogwarts, but not with a bunch of Aurors or Order members around.
> 

Neri:
Well, he runs past one bunch of DEs shooting AKs in all directions
without trying to talk them out of Hogwarts, arrives alone at the
second bunch, and as a result he has to make this terrible choice. But
hey, at least he saved his own life from the Unbreakable Vow. Yes, the
Aurors might have interfered with that.

> Betsy Hp:
> And we also have the rather heavily hinted probability that Snape 
> knows he's going to have to kill Dumbledore (or allow him to die) at 
> some point in the near future.  That the dreaded time is now is 
> another possibility Snape has to be considering as he races up to the 
> Tower.
> 

Neri:
Err
 sorry, *are* we giving Snape the benefit of too much prescience,
or aren't we?

> Betsy Hp:
> Personally, since I think Dumbledore is dying from the start of HBP, 
> I think this "plan" *has* been in place for a long while.  As 
> Dumbledore's physician, Snape would realize that Dumbledore's death 
> would come with no regard for the specific situation.  Especially as 
> more and more time passed.
> 

Neri:
OK, it seems we *are* giving Snape the benefit of too much prescience
<g>. So does this mean we can at least agree to dispense with that
ridiculous "Snape was alone against four DEs so he didn't have choice
but to kill Dumbledore"? He was alone because he wanted to be alone.
 
> > >>Neri:
> > Still, it seems strange how Snape is suddenly so sure that this    
> > time is *now*.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Really? There are Death Eaters *inside* Hogwarts.  The impossible has 
> just occured.  *Something* big is about to happen, and the Death Mark 
> floating above the Tower is fairly indicative that it's going to be 
> ugly.
> 

Neri:
Yes, we are definitely giving Snape the benefit of too much
prescience. He doesn't know yet that there's a Dark Mark over the
tower, remember? He actually doesn't even know if Dumbledore is in the
castle at all.

*Something* is definitely happening. There are DEs lose inside a
castle with several hundreds oblivious children, the defenders seem to
be in a bad condition, it doesn't sound like the Headmaster is
handling the situation, and Snape begins by neutralizing three
valuable defenders before he even leaves the dungeons.

> Betsy Hp:
> But in either case, even if Dumbledore is safely off on one of his 
> horcrux hunts, Snape has a better chance of doing good while on his 
> own.
> 

Neri:
He has? According to what? The end result?

OK, it doesn't look like I managed to convey my point in the previous
post, so let me try again. Put yourself in Snape's shoes at the moment
Flitwick comes bursting into his office. What does he know at this
moment? 

He's sitting there apparently oblivious even to the fact that the
Order members are guarding the corridors (Dumbledore actually thought
he'd be asleep, since he tells Harry to wake him up). He doesn't know
yet that Draco has Dumbledore at wand point, he doesn't know that
Dumbledore can't fight back because he was weakened, he doesn't know
that Dumbledore can or cannot be saved from the potion because he
doesn't even know about the potion. He doesn't even know if Dumbledore
is in the castle at all.

It isn't obvious from the canon what exactly Flitwick tells him, but
Flitwick can't tell him any of the above because he doesn't know it
himself. On the contrary -- to Flitwick's knowledge Dumbledore *isn't*
in the castle. Flitwick was stationed to guard the castle in
Dumbledore's *absence*, remember? He doesn't know that Gibbon set a
Dark Mark over the school. All he can tell Snape is that a bunch of
DEs broke in, and there's a battle right now in the corridor in the
seventh floor. Perhaps he also mentions something about Draco. Or not.

Now, Snape obviously realizes that Draco has finally made his big
move, but he still doesn't know any of the above. He can't even be
sure if the DEs that Flitwick reports are the only DE squad loose in
the castle right now. And yet he suddenly bursts into decisive action,
which mostly includes of neutralizing and/or leaving behind all his
comrades *while a battle rages on* and so arriving alone at the place
where, lo and behold, Dumbledore, Draco and four DEs all stand ready
for the execution of The Plan. Isn't it amazing?

So I see two alternative options for DDM!Snape here. On the one hand,
if there *wasn't* a plan for DDM!Snape to kill Dumbledore, then Snape
doesn't require all this prescience. He's just acting heroic, taking
on the DEs all by himself. But in this case he can hardly complain
about being left alone against four DEs and forced to make terrible
choices. He took care to leave everybody behind himself. Considering
the result, this comes out more lame than heroic.

But if, on the other hand, there *was* a plan, then how come DDM!Snape
acts with such prescience when he knows so little? When Dumbledore and
Snape had decided in advance on that hypothetical plan, what was to be
the cue for execution? When (and how) would both of them know that
*now* is the time?

The only possible cue that seems to work here is "when Draco makes an
irrevocable move". But this suggests again that this whole Plan was to
save Snape's life, at the price of Dumbledore's life, from the terms
of the Unbreakable Vow. The Unbreakable Vow that Snape himself had
made to begin with. IOW, the plan was for Dumbledore to pay with his
life for DDM!Snape's mistake.  

So any way I look at it, again and again I arrive at the same
conclusion: DDM!Snape is Ever So Lame.


Neri