The Train Scene GoF/ role of words in Potterverse

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 162389

> Betsy Hp:
> The interesting thing to me, is that the thing that immediately 
> sprang to mind reading your reply is that this is exactly how the 
> blood-purists feel.  They're acting in self-defense against the 
> influx of muggleborns threatening their way of life and their 
loved 
> ones.  Sure, the muggleborns haven't attacked *yet*, but their 
> attachment to their muggle families suggests that they would 
betray 
> the pure bloods to the stake.  So they pure-bloods, out of love, 
hit 
> first.

Alla:

I find this truly amasing. Refer me to some canon for muggle borns 
threatening the lifes of pure bloods, please? Not what they 
**think** but what muggle borns tell to them.

Hermione threatening Draco or something like that? Because I 
remember quite the opposite happening so far.

 
> Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
> I mean, it's not like I don't understand the reactions of Harry 
and 
> Ron and Hermione.  I just don't like the dismissal of it, or even 
> worse, the praise of it.  They don't act correctly in this scene.  
I 
> just feel like that should be recognized.

Alla:

And I don't like the dismissal of Draco's actions, I do not like 
dismissal of him threatening Hermione, I do not like the dismissal 
of him coming up to Gryffs appartment uninvited, all three of them 
and starting talking the crap he did.

I do not like the dismissal of that.

Do I praise Gryffs actions? I  do not know. I most certainly do not 
reprimand them though. I think that they acted in response to 
provocation, I think that under circumstances that was the only 
possible way they could have react. Maybe if their friend was not 
just being through such terrifying ordeal and they were calmer, 
maybe they would have been calmer too.

And it is not like they decided to attack Draco all together, they 
fired independently of each other.

> Betsy Hp:
> Oh, Ginny is in the same boat Draco is.  She's fully under the 
> influence and control of Tom Riddle or Voldemort.  It's just, 
> Voldemort relies on manipulating Draco's love with Draco rather 
than 
> out and out mind control as he does with Ginny. (Though there are 
> still the moments where Ginny could have told someone and didn't.  
So 
> I don't think the control was complete.  Just as Draco had his 
> breakdown moments in the bathroom.)

Alla:

Not in my opinion. Draco started his service to Voldemort 
voluntarily, bursting with joy on the train. Ginny AFAIK did not. 
Even if you think that Ginny stole the diary on her own ( which I 
disagree with), there is no support IMO that Ginny voluntarily went 
under Tom Riddle control in the beginning.


> Magpie:
<SNIP>
> So even if Harry feels more threatened because he connects these 
> three directly to Voldemort, it's still a general threat, not a 
> specific attack at that moment.
> 
> I don't mean to play down what the Slytherins are doing as if 
there's 
> not provocation in the scene.  Harry and his friends aren't just 
> acting out of irritation.  I think you can acknowledge the 
> seriousness of what they are reacting to while still acknowledging 
> that they're not neutralizing any immediate physical threat. I 
don't 
> want to deny the threatening aspect to what Malfoy is saying, just 
> say that it's not literally self-defense.

Alla:

Literally - probably not. In their minds, especially in Harry's mind 
I honestly think that the aspect of self defense is there.

He had **just seen** what those who support Voldemort can do and 
now, Draco, who is the son of one of his torturers ( or those who 
watched ) comes in to remind himself. I do think that it is 
significant that narrator finds Draco and Co to be menacing.

But hey, as always I feel that I can very often meet you in the 
middle - I am happy as long as you acknowledge the seriousness of 
what Draco does here, not just dismiss it.

As I said - I honestly believe that Harry may have felt that he was 
protecting himself here, after had been through the Graveyard and 
son of Lucius Malfoy showed up to say what he did, but of course - 
there was no immediate physical attack here. Cannot say that this is 
a hundred percent guarantee though.
 

> Magpie:
> Whatever Malfoy might have done all he does do is make vile 
remarks.  
> If he had actually attacked somebody, or Crabbe and Goyle had, 
they 
> could pull out theirs in self-defense, but they're not.  They 
didn't 
> go looking for the Slytherins to hex them, but the only wands 
drawn 
> were the Gryffindors.  

Alla:

You know - I just had an aside thought or sort of aside thought ( 
probably not a novel one). I do think that JKR advances the idea 
that the words can hurt and kill pretty strongly in the books. I 
suppose that for me goes to Draco and Co remarks here, which under 
circumstances I consider pretty deadly, but not just that.

I think that it also goes to Snape running his mouth and metaphor of 
him hurting Neville as being Neville's boggart, but even that is not 
the strongest proof.

I think the strongest proof of this metaphore is Riddle's diary. The 
words that are literally deadly to Ginny and Harry and so many kids. 
And of course Harry kills it.

So, I would not dismiss the words in the books as just words, 
sometimes IMO they are the deadliest weapons.

I must go and find out Dicentra's amasing post about the writing in 
the series.

> Magpie:
> I wasn't only thinking of the assassination plot.  I was just 
> thinking in general as a personality, along with other kids in 
school 
> who have caused lasting harm to others, I was also considering 
> adults. There are a lot of ways in which Draco is worse than most 
> other kids and people we see in canon, but not in all ways, imo. 

Alla:

Oh, but I was. But I will grant you that there are many adults who 
are worse than Draco :), cannot say so about the kids. I mean 
assasination attempt is  the practical repercussion of his 
personality of what he believes in, no?



JMO,

Alla.