[HPforGrownups] Re: OFH, Life-debt and Snape/Lily-no-way

[Scarah]

No: HPFGUIDX 162402

Susan:
The most compelling argument to me about Snape being basically self
centered and nasty come from JKR herself, who is surprised that there
are those amongst us who still think Snape might be a good guy. He is
vile, cruel and abusive. His verbal abuse of Harry, Neville and
Hermione, his total unfairness as a teacher, his abuse of authority,
his hatred of Sirius and his willingness to give ANYONE up to have
their soul sucked out is pretty awful.

Sarah:
The other nice thing about Life Debt Snape is that it provides a clear
motive why Snape would so readily resent both Harry and Neville from
day one.  Harry's the epicenter of all the complications in Snape's
life, and what if Voldemort had just picked Neville instead?  None of
this would be happening.  Perhaps Neville would have rolled over and
died, and the first war would have been won for the bad guys.  And
maybe that's what Snape would have preferred.

Hermione is a tougher pickle, but that's explained easily enough if we
a) take Snape at face value and think that he doesn't like her because
she's a know-it-all or b) speculate he's still got something against
mudbloods, though he can't very well go throwing that language around
as a professor.

Susan:
However, I do not think that even IF Snape was acting on Dumbledore's
orders, that that means he's on the side of the OoP..or that he's a
good guy. He's a double agent. You never really know until the end
about double agents, and they've been known to change sides whenever
it looks as if one side is going to win.

Sarah:
Oh, me neither.  I think he's compelled to act in the best interests
of the Order, because their goals happen to coincide with his own.  I
think it'll be sort of a waste of build-up if it turns out that Snape
is just going with the biggest bully on the playground, the way Peter
is said to.  Snape is one character that has got to have a solid
motive in the end.

Bart:
I have pointed out before (and do not believe it was answered) that
what is notable about the coversation with the Black sisters was not
what was said, but what WASN'T said. Out of all the actions we know
that Snape performed against Voldemort, the most direct and (if Snape
is Voldemort's man) inexplicable was Snape alerting the Order in time
to save Harry & crew from the DE attack in the Ministry. Which means
that it is a very reasonable bet that the Death Eaters (and, by
extension, Tommy Riddle) do not know Snape's role in their defeat.

Sarah:
In Spinner's End, Snape "spins" this so as to take credit for
delivering Sirius Black so that Bellatrix could finish him.  Seems
pretty thin, but she appears to buy it.  He does the same thing for
Emmeline Vance, whose story we know less about.  It could be he was
appearing to the Order to deploy her to prevent some larger
catastrophe, then told the Death Eaters isn't it great that I sent her
there so that you guys could get her?

Annemehr:
I'm still agnostic on the Snape/Lily question, but I think it's a
better bet than you give it credit for, and it's much older than
either of the arguments from HBP or OoP.

Sarah:
I know the idea is old, I just don't know how well supported it is.
Before OOTP it seems like the main support was that he never mentioned
her which, I just figured he couldn't be arsed because she wasn't that
consequential to him.  James was the bee in his bonnet.  And, a way to
explain "stand aside," which I think there are plenty of other equally
plausible explanations for.

Annemehr:
As far as Draco and Hermione in Potions class, I don't see what you
mean.  Actually, I think it's striking that Slughorn passes so
quickly over Hermione's potions.  She is, after all, a member of the
Slug Club, so he's not ignoring Hermione as a person; yet in class he
barely notices her once she's answered his questions at the
beginning.

Sarah:
I was going on more the first five books when Snape was teaching, and
simply meant that Draco and Hermione did well in that class.  Snape
and Lily did well in that class.  Neither fact speaks to a romance
(one-sided or otherwise), to me.  As far as Slughorn and his
preferences go, he seems clearly biased.  He is shunning Draco for
some reason, the simplest explanation for which is Slughorn trying not
to forge ties with Death Eater families at this time.  Zabini's mother
is associated with some questionable activity, but no Death Eating
that I know of.

Let me put it this way, I see a lot more evidence that Slughorn loved
Lily, than that Snape did.  ;)

Annemehr:
Doesn't it make you wonder, though?  Harry is using Snape's book, but
Slughorn sees Lily.  That tells me that their talents were so
similar, that Sluggy could mistake one for the other.  I'm guessing
that they *combined* them to achieve a sum greater than its parts -
just like Golpalott's Law.  I *have* to believe, as many others do,
that those two worked together at school.  Whose talent was the
greater, or whether there was any romance involved, I couldn't say,
but it seems that together they achieved a unique proficiency.

Sarah:
I have a handy bit of speculation (and only speculation) that might
explain this, if it turns out to be true.  I agree it's strange that
Harry goes off Snape's notes, and reminds Slughorn of Lily while doing
it.  But why assume this is the result of synergy between Snape and
Lily?  I see several possibilities.  After all, Harry is using the
notes and getting the results and it is not as a result of him working
closely with Snape.  So... wouldn't it be something if Lily was the
one that really had the potions chops all along, and Snape watched
what she did and wrote it down in his book?  :D

Alternatively, it seems like someone may have got hold of Snape's book
during the MWPP era, since people found out his Levicorpus spell.  So
Lily may have read Snape's book at some point.  I prefer the first
idea though.

Neri:
Second that, except for the part about Dumbledore planning to die,
which I'm not sure how is a part of the theory.

Sarah:
It's not really, but I thought I would lay it out there before it
became a big can of worms.  The rest of the post remains the same even
if you think Snape made that decision on top of the tower.

Neri;
LOL. Couldn't snip that. Now please notice my heroic refrain from
specifying exactly what, by this standard, Snape and Narcissa should
be doing now.

Sarah:
Ha ha, was Narcissa good in Potions?  Maybe you mean they are both
good at kinda sorta following the Dark Lord's orders, in a way.  ;)

Julie, sighing at some of the "straightforward" points supporting  OFH,
such as Dumbledore's "I trust Snape completely" meaning trusting  Snape
to be himself and protect his own interests, which is about a  straight-
forward as a switchback mountain road (as opposed to simply  trusting
Snape, well, *completely*).

Sarah:
I don't know that it is straightforward at all.  I don't know that
anything about Snape is straightforward.

What I do know is this:  Harry sucks at Occlumency.  According to the
TLC/Mugglenet interview, he will always suck at Occlumency.
Dumbledore knows this, and has given up trying to teach him.
Therefore, anything Dumbledore allows Harry to witness must point to
double agent Snape, because Dumbledore has to assume that anything in
Harry's mind could be accessed by Voldemort at any time.

If Voldemort decides to give Harry's brain a shuffle, and sees
Dumbledore saying he totally trusts Snape, then Voldemort will think,
"Ha ha, my double agent is such an awesome actor, this is great."  And
Snape's position with Voldemort will be secure.  If on the other hand,
he managed to glimpse some convincing testimony of why Snape will act
in the Order's best interests in the end, things could start to break
down in a hurry.

Here's the entire paragraph you quoted from:
"Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was
trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, 'I am
sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.'"

Simplest reading to me is that Dumbledore wants to tell Harry more,
but he can't.  He has to continue treating him like a mushroom.
Simplest reason:  Harry fails at Occlumency and Dumbledore can't risk
the real reason existing in Harry's head.

Sarah